Homunculus Discussion

Hand in hand with this race discussion we would also ask that you suggest alchemist abilities for the class. To suggest an ability simply go to the actions menu on the character scroll. Go to add new down at the bottom and flesh out your proposal. We will look at them and if they are good we will use them.

This ability to suggest....abilities is what separates our classes from the others you've heard of before. Please bear in mind that certain abilities are simply left out of certain classes for game mechanics.

EX. Savages can't counter or use disarms. This was a conscious choice. Most classes have something that they can't counter.

For every minute you are angry you lose sixty seconds of happiness.
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

It might be helpful to state what sort of alchemist abilities you guys have already settled on and what kind of ideas are being rolled around. It helps to weed out suggesting abilities that are already there and maybe get some idea of what direction the class is going.

I had initially planned on launching with the alchemist as the single-use item class du jor. Essentially, what alchemists lack in power they make up for in versatility, being able to create one-shot items that do almost anything.

However, it became quickly apparent that a class based only on single-use items wouldn't work unless we removed money/components from the equation. Since this is the biggest balancing factor to prevent such abilities from being abused, of course, I didn't feel it was a feasible way to build a class.

Thus, alchemists are going to be retooled. I'm leaning toward some generic attack actions in addition to their arsenal of potions, dusts, and salves. Explosions seem to make the most sense; perhaps alchemists can infuse common elements with unstable magical energy and throw them like grenades. This would make them a little more like the alchemists of Fullmetal Alchemist, where they're more like wizards with a specialized ability to manipulate the properties of substances.

Also, thank you for the suggestion of Mix, Mitch. However, I've removed it for two important reasons. First, to maintain simplicity in combat, there's no such thing as a stacked effect. It's simply too much to react to when you get hit by, say, a "Maim Freeze."

Second, meta-action factors like combining effects or altering how they're are performed fit into this system as components to discrete actions, not as separate actions unto themselves. This is a departure from other systems, such as Solar's, where, say, you extend the duration of an enchantment by casting a separate spell. Here, you'd have a completely different spell for each separate duration.

Now, here's a possible twist on your Mix effect. Most other classes have to make potions and such from scratch; if they make a lower-level potion, they're stuck with it. However, what if alchemists could upgrade potions for free (e.g., turn a Minor Healing Salve into a Lesser Healing Salve), essentially using existing potions as components. That would add an interesting twist that would make alchemists the masters of one-shots that they are meant to be.

Keep 'em coming. I'm starting to like this class again...

"You are technically correct. The best kind of correct!"
- Bureaucrat 1.0, Futurama

I wasn't intending the "Maim Freeze" so much as tossing a Revive + Heal 10-ish effect vial at a friend. Maybe at certain intervals of the alchemist's leveling career, he can transmute his weapon into certain elements and call that tagline, adding half or your full level in damage? Maybe once an adventure action no matter what level the alchemist is, so it will prevent him from changing it all willy nilly. It would stray far enough away from just giving them +X weapon damage actions per encounter like so many other classes by making it a permanent and lower addition. Bursty classes will still burn down monsters faster than an alchemist can swing his weapon. Just an idea to veer from making the actions the same as so many other classes, but equivalent in damage.

I've actually been working on this over the past few days, and I'm getting close to a point where I feel like it could be playtested.

The one problem I'm running into is that I don't want alchemists to have verbals, but rather some other sort of performance requirement for their actions. The idea I have right now is based on circles. To perform an action, alchemists would either need to trace a circle around themselves (with your foot is fine) or have those circles prepared ahead of time. Either way, the alchemist would need to stand within a circle to perform any action.

I like it from a game design perspective. It adds an interesting dynamic. A stationary alchemist would be a force to be reckoned with, essentially like a wizard with nothing but silent spells. However, they wouldn't be able to move without needing to reestablish their circle, so they'd be powerless in melee. Just like Silent and Still Actions, of course, there'd also be a meta component that would allow alchemists to bypass this limitation.

What does everyone think? Is this feasible? Is it better or worse than having verbals? Will anybody playing an alchemist get dizzy?

"You are technically correct. The best kind of correct!"
- Bureaucrat 1.0, Futurama

If I have to pick between dodging a killing action or the ability to use my class actions, I'd pick wizard. Forcing a class to be stationary is like sending a sniper into the middle east nowadays. Your frontline will outpace you in seconds and you're trying to catch up and draw a new circle before being able to do something. The average fight between a PC and a monster is maybe 10-15 seconds, so depending on how nimble you are and who is willing to step around your inscribed circle, it will take you awhile to become functional. I'd suggest looking somewhere besides Full Metal Alchemist if that's what you're drawing ideas from. Most of those techniques seem impractical.

If you continue with the circle idea, I'd suggest beefing up the spells if you haven't already. You're trading mobility for power, like the heavier artillery.

effectively what your calling for are transmutation circles.
now if your wanting a fullmetal alchemist style alchemist then you don't necessarily need giant circles. maybe have something along the lines of the size of the circle depends on the power of the spell.

for instance, from the anime Roy Mustang has transmutation circles on his gloves so he can control fire, allowing alchemists to use a low dmg fire spell with small personal circles allows the class to move, however if you have a fight where they can prepare than they could create a larger circle in which to stand and use some much more impressive abilities.

then you could have what size circles they can draw be level dependent. also making them choose what type of dmg the circle will produce while the make it because also in the anime they use diffrent symbols and circle styles depend on what element they are working with.

"I'm not locked up in with all of you, all of you are locked up in here with me!" Rorschach - Watchmen

From a pc stand point I don't care for the circle idea but from a monster stand point it's awesome. Cuase either me the goblin can just move a few feet away from the guy in the circle and not get hit or if a couple of monsters charged the guy in the circle unless he's a grand master whatever he's gonna take damage and not be able to cast or he's gonna run then not be in his circle and not be able to cast.

Hey guys I don't know anything about the Full Metal Alchemist most of you are using for a reference for this class so forgive me if I'm on a completely different page.

I think of Alchemists kinda like the chemists of a magical world. I would envision them as masters of production so not only can they use herbs to create acids and venoms like a rogue but they can take those concoctions even further and create alchemical fire/ice/lightning effects. I'd like to see them easily be able to change the damage they call with weapons as well, which may fall in line with the transmutation effect some of you have mentioned. Also the idea of transmutation negates the need for components, like coating the weapon with something would require, which I think is something we're looking for in the class.

Because this class is so dependent on components, it would be nice to give them a reduced component requirement for their productions but I don't know if that's feasible.

Requiring components to deal damage and tossing elemental damage vials is fine, but you run into the problem of money. Those who have the biggest piggy bank deal the most damage. I've seen a few games that have had heavy component realiant classes set up; you rocked the house if you had the bank to fund it, but you sucked if you didn't. I just don't want to see alchemist go along the same path.

Agreed which is why I'd like to see transmutation type Actions instead of all Create...

Just to put things in perspective, guys, performance requirements are supposed to be limiting. If you want to play a class without them, you're essentially stuck being a monk, savage, or warrior. The alchemists have to pay for their versatility just like any other casting class, and I consider a performance requirement an important balancing factor.

So far, the main contention against circles seems to be that circles restrict movement and your time-to-effectiveness in a fight. That's the point. My real question is, which is worse, having to state an interruptable verbal with every action, or having to spin in a circle and remain stationary for any given set of actions?

Mind you, I had no intention of enforcing the complex patterns seen in Fullmetal Alchemist, although that is where the idea originated. I was really just thinking of forcing alchemists to spin in a circle, tracing an imaginary line with their foot, and then have their circle "set" until such time as they move.

The real fun of this limitation is finding creative ways around it, much like rogues getting behind opponents. You could have inscribed (i.e., taped) circles in places where you want to be ready for a fight, like your cabin. You might also organize fights differently by establishing alchemists in key positions before a fight and organizing your party around them. Minus the fact that you have to establish the circle and then remain stationary, you'd essentially be a wizard with nothing but gaze attacks, so it's an important advantage.

As far as circles inscribed on items, Zach, perhaps we could make a type of equipment for alchemists that allowed them to perform specific actions without circles. Remember, Roy Mustang could only create fire with his gloves, not do anything he pleased. Again, that could be an interesting way for the class to work around its limitation.

In the case of alchemists, Gerald, I'd say restricting their movement is limiting enough. Short of forcing them out of a circle, I'd say their actions couldn't be interrupted the same way other casters' actions could. I wouldn't say that's too unbalanced. Of course, remaining stationary while getting beat on is a bit of a challenge. Good thing they'll have weak affinity for Armored Combat. ;)

Jessi, seriously, you want to watch Fullmetal Alchemist. It is, without a doubt, the best anime series ever, and is the sole reason Orn has homunculi and alchemists. It's not a requirement by any means; Fullmetal Alchemist derives its system of alchemy very heavily from classical alchemy, so if you understand one, you basically understand both.

I've already got a lot of actions in mind for alchemists. They'll be the masters of one-shot items; almost any one-shot item that can be made by another class can be made, and used, by an alchemist as well, including poisons. Alchemist's fire and the like are certainly doable. I've also got nothing against them using Empowers, Repairs, Ruins, and the like without components.

Because I'm re-envisioning them as magic users specializing in manipulating substances, they'll have packet-delivered attacks much like a wizard (i.e., pick up a stone, infuse it with unstable magic, then hurl it like a grenade). They'll also have the unique ability to Transmute existing equipment from one metal into another, although this will likely be expensive.

I'm iffy about the idea of giving them a price break on components, if only because that would make any other class' ability to create the same item a waste or resources. Again, they were originally envisioned as a class that could only make things, but I'll fixed them by giving them normal, use-all-the-time abilities as well, so this isn't as big a deal as it may seem.

Any other thoughts? Is anyone else getting as excited as I am about seeing them in play?

"You are technically correct. The best kind of correct!"
- Bureaucrat 1.0, Futurama

I'm liking the potential of this class, and if you have the ability to use weaker spells without circles (i.e. the circles on items idea) then I think you could really have a winner on your hands. I envision alchemists as becoming the ultimate class for strategist as it seems they will ultimately need to pre-plan everything.

as for the circles on items thing...I think we should enforce actual circles on the items, nothing complicated mind you, maybe a circle with a line across it for fire, two lines earth etc etc. alchemists could start play with a single item of this nature (of course it would only throw light damage) and could create more later on, maybe even enhance their starter item. you could further limit these powerful items by forcing them to be useable only by the alchemist who created them or just by alchemists in general.

"I'm not locked up in with all of you, all of you are locked up in here with me!" Rorschach - Watchmen

Two cents ...

I can see alchemists doing 2 things, and doing them well.

1. Using any substances in the game. From making and delivering heals pots (maybe even thrown ala Final Fantasy Tactics) to elemental pots to rain down destruction upon their foes. Cool basic concept. And, of course, making all those Release, Escape, Mend, etc., nifty and all too necessary potions for just the right occasion.

2. I like the circle idea, to a point. Alchemists may also take the natural elements around them and fuse them into power. Like Thad said, rock + unstable power = woot. But only within the confines of a circle. This allows the alchemist to have one shot pots anytime and anywhere, as well as, immediate combat effectiveness.

AND a limiting factor built in. So, in Gerald's case, my goblin homies and I roll up on some Alchemist, he may be able to burn us down with his pots or he may have time to set up his circle and do it the old fashioned way. Or maybe he doesn't (grin)

Also, thinking that to balance the Alchemist out, making his Sudden actions (circle stuff) be a level or two behind the wizzy. So if Wizard A gets a two packet 10 Fire at 2nd Level, then Alchemist B should maybe get it at 3rd or so.

So, to sum up.

Pots all the time.

Sudden actions (elemental damage) only from circles.

Those are just immediate thoughts and suggestions.

Note: Not all content above is original, some has been gleaned and (hopefully) improved upon. That is all. End transmission.

Okay that makes alot more sense to me and the Goblins. I like those ideas Kevin.