Since Nick and I started the game, we've had a lot of time to consider its direction. The first season has been a time of growth and development, sometimes painful but always necessary. Jessi's recent departure and my return to plot are two examples of that.
I'd like to share something personal with you all. Nick and I could have played another LARP if we had wanted. It definitely would been easier. We created the Shards of Orn to build a LARP of our own, to craft something unique that we could be proud of and have fun with. I'll admit, different isn't always better, but you never know unless you try, which is why we dare to be different from other LARPs on a lot of things.
It is in that vein that we've decided to take the game in a new direction by instituting the . In most LARPs, the world is neutral to your actions; the only consequences you have to fear are from your fellow players. This adds realism of a sort, but also fosters a competitive atmosphere that hinders the cooperative play style that many of us favor.
Karma changes all of that. All PCs will now be able to suffer karma as a consequence for PvP-related actions. If you kill or steal from other PCs, among other things, you will earn karma points, resulting in karmic backlashes. This can manifest as anything from a curse or other malady to additional red or black stones in your fate pool to lost treasure and skill points. As the word karma implies, your actions will now come back to haunt you.
If you're curious about the details, the is available in the rulebook. The most important thing to note is this: If you don't prey upon or exploit your fellow PCs, karma can only benefit you. If you do, you're welcome to continue doing so; just know that you will suffer inescapable consequences that will render such activities no longer worth your while.
We invite feedback on this. However, as we've told others, while karma itself may be revised or eventually replaced, the underlying goals of deterring PvP and fostering cooperative play are integral to the direction we've chosen for the game. We hope everyone chooses to be a part of that.
Hooray! Hooray! I applaud Karma. The improvement I see that this will do for the game is, people do not have to be totally suspicious and wary of every character that utters a single word. This suspicious behavior fosters a complete mistrust for players in and out of play (whether someone says they can separate in play from out of play, most cannot totally). Players will be more likely to converse casually, create alliances, and generally be more productive in groups. Not every conversation will have to be about the life and death of the world, thus creating a lot more friendly and enjoyable atmosphere. I know that I am new to LARPing, but from an outside perspective I can see how LARPs fail. When a character can't get a leg up for someone taking advantage of their inexperience, and every attempt to improve is thwarted by another gamer, that fledgling character would rather quit than attempt to talk reason to the unreasonable. Then there goes money out the window(Which this thing can not function or get better without), a character, a player, and also missing possibly an awesome dynamic personality to the game. If we want to talk of realism, I believe this is more realistic in the aspect that everyday living is not so sneaky and full of conspiracy. Yes you still can't just trust anyone, but most people have some semblance of a moral code (karma) even if it is no more than, if I get caught I am going to be in big trouble. Karma is good because you can still go about and play a dastardly character, but you have to stop and think about if your action is worth it. I also see it as a neat plot device that can be used in play against us. Not all decisions are black and white therefore you can accidentally slip into a negative karma situation because of the choice you make in game. Again I applaud Karma.
This is just my opinion. I think karma is ridiculous and un needed.
My question to you Jeff is if all that bad stuff has happend to you in play why haven't you the Sheriff taken care of it?
If we want to talk about lose of money for the game a good way to do that is by taking control of my pc away from me and giving it to plot. As Thad and I already had this conversation before the game even started and I thought he agreed with me. Nothing pissed us of more about the other larps we played, than when plot thought it was funny to start messing with our pcs because they thought we deserved it. I come to a game to play my pc not the one plot wants me to play.
Of course we all have a moral code but my character may not an now we're gonna get punished for playin the pc that we paid to play not the one plot wants us to.
I think Karma is gonna cuase alot of running to plot over every little thing and if something goes down when one the two plot members isn't around it's gonna be he said she said and what do we do then?
To your question Gerald what laws am I to enforce? There are no current laws in Jastrey. If I have no laws to enforce I cannot act upon them. I know if I were to act, the first argument would be "It's not illegal" the second thing against me would be that I would be vilified and accused of being a biased hate monger bent on singling that one person out. Thirdly I would have the burden of proof to even begin to act, if I act on someone's word then you go back to the he said she said thing. In that case you need a coroberating witness to even back the charges. Witnesses can be produced either way for or against. If you have one to coroberate the story, their can easily be another to dispute it, ie produce an alibi (believeable or not). If you want to know why I have not acted on anything, is because I am not stupid. I not going to go off half cocked without proof enough to put the accused down. Anything else is possibly a scar on Kevass's reputation and also a waste of time.
As another point, have you ever thought the reason you can't find a LARP to your satisfaction is that you may be doing something wrong. I am sure that didn't cross your mind. Is it just coincidence that in each of these LARPs you speak of that plot has seen the need to do something and "start messing with our pcs"?
I think Karma will fix a lot of things. It may have it's own problems, but aren't you at least willing to try it before you condemn it?
Hello I would like to take this time and ask some questions, I don't want the answers from nick or thad. I would like the answers form the combination of the 2 owners, I will call this combination NAD. So please call each other before any answers are giving. 1= if 10 people are fighting a giant and the thief steals a sack of gold from the giant while the fight is happening is this karma worthy? if the giant is alive is he a npc? 2= if there is a field battle and everyone there dies except 1 person he then takes the prize for himself is this karma worthy? 3= if no one wants to go on your mod so you and 3 buddies go and you all die, everyone who told you no are they karma worthy? 4= Gerald brought up a good question, what about a no witness killing, then the guilty party lies what then? I understand that karma is new and there might be some problems that need to be looked at that is what these questions are for. My opinion is that karma is worth a try as long as it applies to every character but, there are still problems. 5= there are characters in the game that by race are proud people and do not take well to a personal challenge or disrespect DWARF/ELF/URDEK and snide comments will not be tolerated. what are they to do about such offences? 6= if karma is about killing other players what about a good beat down what are the restrictions on bullying but not killing? I think Karma is a new and to some a scary idea but I think we would all feel better if these questions were answered so we could get a better feel for karma. so NAD get to it. Thankyou.
To Jeff, wouldn't that add so much more to the game if the sheriff had to investigate crimes and find the guilty party and punish them accordingly. I guess there?s no need to even come up with any laws now because some unknown cosmic force is gonna track me down and spank me.
As far as me doing something wrong at these other larps what I said not only came from me but from 5 other people that play this game. So I would like to think it's not just me being difficult but a consensus among experienced gamers with 7+ years of larping experience alone. The consensus being that if I pay to play a character I should be able to develop their personality and not have it be limited to good or good. I think that all games need a balance of good characters and antagonists because it provides so much more depth and realism then just fighting against two plot guys all the time.
I will say from my own personal experience, I play the good guy at Talan and I love the rp aspect of tracking down thieves and murderers especially when they are other pc's because a pc is far more invested in saving their character than any plot person who's playing npc #7 of the weekend. PvP conflicts from both sides are some of my best memories.
I hope you understand that none of this is personal and I really would prefer this not turn into a series of insults about people's intelligence or personality because we enjoy gaming with each player in Orn. I think that everyone brings something to the game and we have tried to be as helpful as possible oop with the rules and general larping knowledge.
BJ, I think those are all great points. I would also like to ask if everyone is comfortable with loosing skill points that are earned from paying for the game for actions that your character chooses to do. I also think that because this arbitrary assignment system is so open to abuse that plot will hear no end of favoritism accusations.
I accept that this is not up for discussion but I would love to hear everyone else?s opinions too.
The NAD has conferred with itself and reached the following conclusions:
- Yes
- Yes
- No
- This is a difficult sticking point. However, there are two things to consider. Firstly, truly witnessless killings are a small minority of cases, and secondly, lying to plot like that is cheating. If you lie to plot in order to avoid karma or inappropriately assign it to someone else, you're risking severe out-of-play consequences to try and avoid manageable in-play consequences. Forget conditions and lost treasure; you could be ejected from the game entirely.
- You have options. You can keep your sword in your sheath, for starters; there's no rule in any race entry that states you must kill someone who insults you. Secondly, beat downs are permitted, within reason. Drop them and first aid them if you have a good in-play reason to do so. The moment they rez is the moment you receive karma.
- Note "within reason" above. The litmus test is this: If you're being a dick, you get karma. There's a difference between a good, in-play, RP justification for a beat down and randomly attacking other PCs because you feel like picking on them. Abuse the rule and you'll start receiving karma for it, regardless of whether or not they piff.
So I guess Thad and Thalenir have alot of karma because according to you ("The "in-play vs out-of-play" dichotomy is the status quo at other LARPs. It is a standard that favors experienced players over new players, that favors competitiveness over cooperation. It is used as a justification for bullying, all but saying, "Do what you want, and let your victims fend for themselves.") there really is no differnce in in play and out of play.
I know every one has a personal life but it would be really awesome if Nick could actually log in and back up some of this himself, becasue after hearing some of the things he's said on the phone there are some big differnces in what is being said on line and what is being said on the phone.
I'm not going to argue with you Gerald. If you feel that this decision restricts your play style in an unacceptable way, all I will say is that the game you want to play isn't the game we want to run.
On a side note, I've removed your staff privileges on the site. Regardless of the fact that I stand behind every word of what I said, this is the second time that you've broadcast information from a forum that you yourselves requested be private to game staff. I'll have to decide with Nick whether or not the removal will be permanent.
My advice to you would be to take some time and calm down. You obviously feel strongly about this, but I don't see anything constructive being accomplished in the direction you're headed.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
- Wizard of Oz
hello, Well this is getting really heated so papa bear is going to speak. This is a game that is only 1 year old. This is a game that is set up by friends for friends. Everyone has alot invested in the future of this game and some" the vassar family" have gone above and beyond to help this game work. With that being said I would like to think that throwing all of this away over karma, is not in the best interest of anyone.
Karma means you can't steal from players.
Karma means you can't bully players.
Karma means you can't kill players.
Now i'm sorry that everyone is upset but to me if the above column is what karma is about then I like karma. will it make the game weak? it might. will some be turned off by karma? Yes. Will karma mean the end to this LARP? No. If Karma does not work will NAD get rid of it? Yes. I would like people to say i like / don't like Karma and then move on. Lets see how it works and if the game is to bland then go on more mods or join plot or start a hardcore branch of this game that you sign up for to be "flagged" all the time. I feel that if you sit down to eat and the bread is not warm enough you should not throw the plate on the floor and smack the waiter then burn the restaurant down. Lets see if Karma works please. Thank you
Well......guess I will put in my cents worth, and no its not going to be ugly :-)
First off the pros of Karma as I see them.
1) It will keep people honest over loot.
2) It will keep pcs from picking on other pcs
3) It will promote more of a PvE enviroment where we all try to work together to accomplish a goal.
4) It will promote players that are new to LARP's that are afraid of being taken advantage of.
5) It will keep hate mongering also called Griefing to a minimum
Now the Cons as I see them
1) It will keep people honest over loot.
2) It will keep pcs from picking on other pcs
3) It will promote more of a PvE enviroment where we all try to work together to accomplish a goal.
4) It will make more work for plot.
5) It will severly dwindle our already small amount of players.
6) I will lessen the role of an in game rules enforcer (sheriff)
And yes incase you didn't notice 1-3 are the same for both. To me these are a double edged sword. Dreygor and Kirell have both had a good relation with Sabian and Despair and it came about from in game play that probably would of never of happened if Karma had been in place. Also an enviroment that is predominently PvE becomes boring and stagnant over time. There has to be an aire of tension between the PC's to keep the game interesting. After all who has ever heard of a band of heros that got along perfectly? With that said its not my barbeque, but I sure as hell going to keep eating.
"In the action of kill or be killed, greater love hath no man then to lay down his life for a friend."
And with good reason, BJ. I've removed the comment and blocked her account. This sort of outright rudeness will not be tolerated.
I, for one, refuse to be drawn into a pointless and spiteful argument that can only end worse than it began. We'll be moving on to constructive game-building activities now. Those who wish to be counterproductive, please do so elsewhere.
This thread is now closed to further comments.
(Note: This isn't directed at you, Tom. Check your inbox for a follow-up email, and thanks again for the great feedback.)
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
- Wizard of Oz
I almost forgot to mention, if you're ever curious, your karma is tracked in a way that's almost identical to your fate pool. Changes are recorded at events by plot, added or subtracted by administrators during downtime, and permanently logged in your character history. If you're ever curious about your current and lifetime karma totals, you can see them on your character sheet beneath your fate pool.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
- Wizard of Oz