Every larp I’ve attended had a very pvp oriented loot system. It went something like this: I’m a warrior or at least a high level damage dealer. I down a monster and if there are no more to kill I then search the monster and get the loot. Netting me a small coin for my trouble.
This is all well and good if there is no more monsters to kill. However if there are more, I’m in the front line and when I attempt to search I get hit and could die for that measly coin. So I defend myself leaving the monster to be searched and looted by someone else. When I return to the corpse, assuming that I lived, the coin will have been taken.
At other games this is perfectly normal and hated by all players. And it is one reason why we at ORN do not have this type of system for Mods.
So now that I’ve brought up mods, what do the other games do? I’m glad you asked. They put loot on EVERY monster you encounter. Slowing down waves of monsters considerably. Thus slowing game play. And in field battles the treasure is usually in a chest by the boss monster.
So all of town’s loot is in one convenient place for a savvy player to take. Lock stock and barrel!
So what does this all have to do with PVP loot?
Simple, I would like to see pvp players not get loot from the treasure draws. Their loot is in the flagged chest at the field battle. Or found on the corpse of the big baddie at the end of the mod. Let them fight for the first rites to loot. Or steal the loot out from under town’s nose.
This will be the same as the treasure draws for non-pvp players. If there are two level two flagged players then there are two random treasure pulls in the box. This number goes up a lot when you have a lot of pvp players of high levels. Thus the only way to get treasure is to take it or negotiate. If you are lucky a high level pvp player gets the treasure, takes first pick, and then gives you something.
Non-pvp players will keep the standard safe and fair loot system. (NHS 4)
Coming from a dude who is strongly pro-beginner. I don't think any system, whether if you opt into it or not that rewards the strong and punishes the weak deserves implementation in any game.
At worst it would be a bunch of high levels dominating the treasure and not letting any other players grow and progress their character through the subtle means of treasure and loot progression.
At best it would be the word of the strong having first pick, taking the best for themselves and giving those who can't actually challenge them ingame for the items whats left.
It's a really cool idea for pvp. Letting players fight over the loot just as they would in reality but the overall effects and consequences seem devastating to anyone who isn't at the top of the totem. Larping isn't like a videogame where level progression is directly related to how much time and effort you put in, Meaning it's years and years of eating other peoples shit before you could consider challenging their might.
That's the whole point, Alex. We have the stated goal of reining in the amount of PvP that goes on, particularly among newbies. This encourages them to wait until they've played awhile, grown stronger, and either become part of a posse or developed a rapport with the other PvPers.
Now, in order to drive this point home, I'd rather see the first of a flagged character's draws from a mod go into the PvP box. That way, you only get one fewer draws, which is everything at low levels but grows less significant as your level goes up. It would help drive the point home that PvP at low levels is a bad idea, while keeping the disparity in wealth to a minimum.
What I can say is that something about PvP will become harsher. This or PvP perming are the strongest candidates right now, and this one seems more elegant.
i like the perming idea better this just sucks all the way around you'd at least only have a 1/22 chance of perming at least and that only if you die. This will cause the people that normaly don't do the killing blows and/or searchs to start and plot will have to pay even more attention to whats going on. Plus the people playing the monster could end up going out and finding people in there possie and then letting them kill them so that the treasure the monster theyre playing goes into there guild. This is just a few of the problems i forsee happening if this plan goes into effect.
I think that your idea Thad of just taking one treasure pull from each PVPer and letting that be the contents of the chest is a good middle ground. And as long as that dispute over treasure takes place after the boss is dead, I dont have a problem getting a nice little show right after a big fight.
Treasure denial sounds horrible, because it's such a serious component to character growth, and it's the reward to even going on mods in the first place which is the whole point of even paying money to attend the game.
Without giving players their treasure, whether they are pvp flagged or not, it's like masturbation with no reward, no moneyshot, No final moment of triumph before you sigh contentedly and go back to the rest of the daily chores. No. You're just going to have a few very happy players, and then the rest of them feeling jilted and blueballed.
What will the end result be? High levels pimped out in the cherry picked loot, and the newbies with scraps if they are lucky. And the very way of leveling in orn proves your logic as false, as there will ALWAYS be people far above you in the system with no way for you to actually catch up to them.
Another question to ask is "what is the motivation for doing this?" It's not providing anybody any fun, it's just providing people less things to have fun about because of the desire to marginalize pvp. The end result is the exact opposite of what thads forum signature says.
Under the proposed system you have to choose if you want to enjoy the desert that is treasure, or if you want to get that nice buzz that only pvp on the rocks can provide. unless you happen to have been with the game long enough and given them enough of your money so that you finally get the priviledge to have and enjoy both at the same time, And I'm not sure if that is the message anyone wants to receive at a larp, or be sending, for that matter.
I always figured there were a few things in the game that other players couldnt touch, no matter how dickish they want to be. The first was permanent death, and the second was your treasure draws. The third was your pants.
Right now I'm just waiting for the thread where players can loot pants off of people now too.
The point of paying money to attend the game is to have fun: This if forcing you to choose which way you will have more fun. Some people may have more fun fighting or negotiating for their treasure rather than having it handed to them on a silver platter, something that goes hand in hand with the hardcore PvP mindet.
Actually, I think the end result will be fewer newbies attempting to PvP, Alex, which is exactly what I want. You can rage against us wanting to marginalize PvP all you like, but that is the stated goal of these changes. I'm not denying it; it's exactly what I'm out to do. Complaining about that won't change the objective.
Tom, I remember what you're talking about, and you're right but for one key fact: PvP is voluntary. Choosing to fight for your treasure is voluntary right along side that. This won't ruin anyone's good time except the PvPers who don't have the stomach or stats for it, and they won't have to remain PvP going into next season.
Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to tag this one with a THS 8 and challenge you guys to give me something better. We don't want to see as many red flags, and we especially want to disincentivize newbies from engaging in PvP. Give me a way of doing that that's more elegant than this and I'll consider it.
marginalizing pvp is one thing, but you're changing the beast entirely. Out of all the ideas to make pvp leave orn, this is the one that will make pvp not only completely unfun and unfair at its core, but completely broken. Because not even unflagged players have the ability to look at 10-20 tags and take as much/ whatever they want. So you're putting pvp flagged high levels/ successful guilds above everything else in the game, including the unflagged community.
If you want to enable and ENCOURAGE PvP theatre, there is no better way than that. You get a guild together that can smack shit? you're entitled to ALL THE LOOT ON THE TABLE! I don't see how you all aren't seeing this as overpowered and broken as I am.
Keep in mind that this will ignite a pvp powder keg and just make the pvp encounters more rough,aggressive and result in more out of game frustration than before.
Pvp is voluntary, yes. But you're completely changing what people are volunteering for. Keep in mind this will also affect the story of orn, as no single person in their right mind would want to make a story choice if it means entering a broken system and sacrificing all of what you're entitled to as an unflagged player.
Another thing to keep in mind is stepping beyond your bias against pvp. It's really grown and the players who have participated in it have enjoyed it. PvP theatre has created some of the most memorable moments in the last season and unless there are some major changes to how unflagged players can affect change in the town then I don't think I see the role that pvp plays going anywhere in the game.
As it stands in the game, right now that is the easiest and one of the only routes for a player to create a character that matters in the world of orn and the land of jastrey is to flag for pvp and play their role in the changing political landscape of the flagged players. Now you're telling players not only to NOT opt in into the best way to immerse themselves into orn, but you aren't providing any story substitutes for them to enjoy and interact with (only punishing them for being on the wrong side of the armband).
Even all the negatives of having nearly half of the active players in orn being relatively new and flagged for pvp aren't more negative than what these proposed changes would bring to the level of player enjoyment.
If you want players to unflag and stay unflagged, then a gentler and more subtle touch can be made. Make PvE more appealing to a pvp flagged player than simply making pvp so unattractive that it brings the entire game down with it. PvP became what it is today because being unflagged wasn't fulfilling something that players desired and found within the pvp community.
forgive any sloppy mistakes, I'm typing fast because...skyrim.
TLDR: All ive read in the past few weeks is making pvp the Larping equivalent of sticking a toothpick underneath your toenail and kicking it into a wall, but I'm not hearing much talk on the reward players get for being unflagged instead.
I skimmed most of your wall of rant, Alex, and in all those words, you don't seem to have done what I asked. Again, the design goal here isn't changing (THS 10). If you could, please go back and reread the discussion group kickoff post, particularly the parts about keeping your posts succinct and offering solutions.
The biggest problem I see with this is that it is a reward system for the highest lvl PVP player not and only a deterant at low lvls. The perm idea really makes a player think if killing that other player is really the best choice. In this system it make pvp theatre a much bigger side show. If you put in the perm system that I said (death card from pvp death = instant perm/ death card from pve death = prebuilt lvl 20 epic death shade) says that if you choose to pvp even at higher lvl then you could still loose it all not gain so much more.
This is the best opption I can come up with. If you put in this loot system in place Ashley well flag and kill every pvp person out there, take all there items, and then tell them if they touch the chest the will die. So, if that is what you want then by all means add it I'm just telling you its a bad idea.
Ashley could flag, kill every PvP player, and take their treasure now. This doesn't change that. The fact that it doesn't happen already tells us that PvPers are cautious when it comes to wanton murder and theft, which leads me to believe that the PvP chest will be much the same. It may create bickering and arguments on how to divide up the treasure inside, and drama when someone decides to try and make off with all of the loot, but that's the whole point. If you want a fair cut, you have a vested interest in maintaining uneasy relations with your fellow cutthroats.
I do, however, see your point about it actually serving as an incentive for higher-level folks to PvP as a way of getting more treasure. Now I'm wondering if both approaches might not achieve the desired result. Pooled loot for PvPers would disincentivize the newbies, while the threat of permanent death from PvP would disincentivize the high-level characters who have more to lose. I think adding both is actually harsher than I wanted to go, but it's not off the table.
Here is my Idea, instead of putting rules in place to discourage PvP that is going to cause tension and frankly hatred among the player in real life, just do the right thing. You don't want it, so ban it period. If you didn't want to put the product out there in the first place, then should of never of opened that can of worms. People will take kinder to it just going away then getting forced into a different playstyle. Either way we will loose players over this, its just a matter of whether they leave feeling cheated or with a feeling of understanding.
As I've said already, our goal here is to rein in PvP by giving it less broad appeal. The goal is not to kill it outright, which I'm confident won't happen with the proposed changes to looting or perming. If the change to looting does anything, it brings PvP closer to what it is in other games. I know from first hand experience that that sort of environment holds an appeal for the sort of player we're talking about, so over all I think it will be a positive change. The "hardcore" crowd will still flag, if anything even more readily, and those who were on the fence before will be more likely to stay unflagged. Mission accomplished.
Nick and I are in agreement on this one. PvP looting is approved. We'll take this incremental step and see if it addresses the state of PvP to our satisfaction before doing any more, however, so PvP perming will be shelved for now. (THS 10)
I'm sorry you guys didn't agree with us on this one, but I want to say I do appreciate the thoughts and feedback. Even in disagreement, there is value, and I'm glad you guys are participating.
Or, to put it in Alex's words: PvP looting is on. U mad bro? :P
What is the driving logic that justifies the idea that making the entire loot that you as a player earned for participating in a mod up for grabs by the entire pvp community is a good idea?
At least if someone wanted your loot last season they had to chase you down and kill you for it . under this system it's extremely plausible that you may go an entire event without a single piece of treasure ever touching your own hand.
Nobody wants to pay 30 bucks a month to have a bad time and get no treasure :/
I'm with dreygor on the idea of completely removing pvp alltogether. What are the upsides to pvp that are worth such a broken loot concept? Making people flag for being naughty? once all the hardcore players stay flagged, nobody else will flag. not even if you dangle something awesome under their noses. the mixture of permanent death and no treasure just doesn't make it appealing to anyone that isn't already signed up for it.
So now you're not only controlling pvp, but you're also forcing unflagged players to metagame before they roleplay their character because the consequences of flagging for pvp are so high. Is that an acceptable loss in the interest of making newbies not flag in orn?
Personally I like the idea of having pvp players having to fight over the loot they are to recieve instead of just getting it for free. This gives the players even more options to play the game as they wish. If they want to be a rogue that earns his treasure with a sly tongue or a quick hand then they are free to do it. This also adds another level of realism to the game because if I'm faster and stealthier than you and got to the treasure first then sorry this is "hardcore" gaming, that is pvp.
I also agree that treasure should remain the way it is for unflagged players. It works and is completely unbiased and fair. I do however, think that if mods are getting seperated into general, high, medium, and low levels, as i think they should, then they should be pulling from different treasure bags. After all to me a 5th lvl Dragon may only have a couple silver nuggets and maybe a magmite ore, but Scorch would have had a few decades to get some pretty good stuff.