We have recently seen several great pieces of nonmetal armor. I for one think that if the game looks great we all feel great about it! However, we can?t give full points for armor that isn?t the real thing. The players that wear the real thing would feel jilted. So I?m asking, what do you think?
Should armor that isn?t metal give armor points? And if so how much? What about other examples, like fake leather?
I?d like o hear your thoughts on this and wish to hear about how other games addressed this as well. If you could tell me how you felt about those other game?s decisions on this matter it would greatly help us to come to a win ,win.
I am of the mind that real armor requires expense and dedication and really adds something to play, both for the wearer and everyone around them. On the other hand, armor made from fake materials can accomplish the look we're going for without the expense and potential health and safety issues. Thus, I agree that we should allow the fake stuff, but count it a tier or two lower in terms of armor points.
On this topic.. ^.^; I normally don't wear armour because I've never played a melee fighter. I'm going to be getting some mesh mail. It's made of stainless steel, but the wire diameter is about .63mm and the ring size is 5.33 mm. I'm not gonna get knocked down a tier am I?http://www.ringmesh.com/v/vspfiles/photos/RMM210-2T.jpg
Just my two cents, but I think the plastic armor mimics the hardened leather of old very well, so I believe that is where it should fall. Plastic has about the same weight and density of hardened leather, and would offer about the same protection from a real sword (hardly any lol).
I'm all for using the real stuff whenever possible. I'm in the process of replacing my piece for actual hardened leather mostly because it feels better, wears better, and can be fitted to me easier than the bulky piece that I was wearing over the weekend. That.. and there is NO WAY that I could possibly wear my jacket with something so cumbersome.
As to armor and its value, I'm all for giving it the value that it looks like the most. I was fully ready to accept hardened leather for what I brought in, even though at other events its considered to be plate because that is what it is representing. Personally I think its a cop out to give it full value as its lighter, cheaper, and doesn't look nearly as nice. At the same time, said event accepts clay poker chips sewn into a shirt to count as full plate as well, even though brigandine doesn't offer quite the same quality of protection.
Steel is steel, and in my opinion, for the look, the weight, and the effort that it takes to use it, there should be no exceptions. There is a "fake" steel poly out there that looks really good, but doesn't have that same ring to it when you hit it. Its far lighter, but would probably offer the same protection in a larp event. I'd probably give this full marks too but mostly because its pretty expensive.
Leather is leather, comes in basically 2 types, hard and soft. I think these lines are pretty well drawn out and just looking at them anyone should be able to tell the difference. I'd probably put the molded barrel in with the hard leather based on the wider acceptance in other games and its overall weight, look, and feel. It has the bulk, rigidity, and noise of plate when you start moving (and mind you that sucks when you're trying to sneak), but it just doesn't look like plate. Giving a base of 30 here like heavy leather seems fair, and provides a level of entry for people who may have been using an existing suit in other systems, and encourage them to start working on getting other pieces of real steel armor if they want to go that route.
I'm questionable, and always have been regarding the poker chip brigadine in regards to look and protection, but not so much safety. Its relatively light, gives near full mobility, and rarely ever looks like more than a padded gambison. Like molded plastic, I'd probably lump this in between light and heavy leathers, only due to the thickness of the material and the fact that the interlocking coins/plates are rarely touching and generally have enough space between them to easily lay a half inch dowl, more in the areas around the corners.
As to chain, the dominating factor in chainmaile to me is the weight. Its fluid, and provides a wide range of protection, and looks awesome. Lighter materails like aluminum help reduce the weight, and since we're in a fantasy setting, I'd be ok with them personally, I think of references of elven mesh or mithril or many other fantasy substances to accomidate this. However, the tightness of the rings would make a big difference in the value of the armor. The tighter the rings are together, the higher I'd rate it. Large barely interlocking rings, I'd probably just toss out and consider it more as jewelry unless it was worn on top of a leather jerkin and then mabe give it a 5pt bonus as stacking on the leather as it would help to deflect glancing blows. But this goes back to the old armor stacking discussion, and I don't really want to rehash that again.
Fake leathers, depending on the thickness, I'd almost throw right out. If you're going to go leather, might as well at least go with a 6-8oz cut of larp/costume leather. A lot of it just looks silly to. In my own opinion anyway.
Outside of that, I can't think of any other representations of fake armor that I've seen in a game or online, but I'm sure there's something else out there that I'm likely missing. In general, I'd go with a first impression based on what it looks like, and in general, give no more than heavy/reinforced leather.
Perhaps the armour marshall should be free to add a few points for awesomeness? A lot of players, especially in this economic climate, won't be able to buy themselves actual metal plate... But if, say, a marshall could look at my armour and say "This looks awesome and adds to the game atmosphere. It's hardened leather, but instead of being 36 points for breast and shoulders, let's round it up to the full 40" I'd be all kinds of giddy. ^_~ Of course, it'd take a pretty strict marshal who was willing to say "You took some leather scraps and glued wing nuts to them. No man. No."
Hmmmm As to the expence of metal plate, I have found many cheap suppliers. May not be stellar quality, but for the most part looks good. Its is actually cheaper then chain because now days you can just use presses and molds to form it instead of hammering each individual piece. Stiers got his great quality breastplate for only $50. I paid only $40 for mine. Ebay is a great tool.
Oddly enough, I'm finding that its actually cheaper to find a decent steel plate piece that looks stylish than it is to find a nicely crafted leather piece that doesn't look like its been too stylized or too sharp to be useful and safe in a larp event. Like Dreygor, I've seen quite a few pieces of plate for at or around $100 and some cheaper. Haven't been lucky enough to find one at $50 though, wow.
Ebay is where I got mine, however here is a good website with great deals
http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/Default.aspx?
alright, so i realize i am a noob and have never larped before, so go ahead and hold all of those comments and concerns. What I am though, is a soldier. I realize that metal armor is really kick ass, but the fact of the matter is that the technology wasnt there. Modern advents in science in the last half of the century created armor that was stronger, lighter, and cost effective. If this was not the case, then we would still be wearing steel helmets and plates, not kevlar. I understand that for the expense and all of that of armor, you should not get the full points, but i also see the very real prospect of people that cant afford full plate or that cannot wear it for weight concerns. Should their charcter concept be compromised for these out of play considerations. Should we expect a fourteen year old kid that is 110 lbs to have to become a mage because the 50 lb plate is too heavy for him to wear? I agree with the rules and am merely playing devils advocate. Part of the allure of LRP is getting to be something in play that you cannot achieve out of play. Just some thoughts, even if they are a month late and a thousand dollars short lol.
Some other games I've played counted non metal plate and brig as either a step down from what it was representing or half of what it was representing. So if metal plate was worth 40, it would be either whatever chain or brig is worth or just 20 points. I personally like the half value rule. It's easy to calculate, and allows some use of non metal stuff, but rewards players who go all the way.
My opinion on fake armor is based on my priorities for the game: I care about safety, fun, and immersion, in roughly that order. Fake armor is safer and less expensive, which lowers the barrier of entry and allows for more participation, and thus more fun. Provided that it looks period, I don't much care what it's actually made out of.
As far as real period armor goes, folks are welcome to wear that as well, but this is more of a game and less of a Renaissance fair. Realism is important only insomuch as it promotes immersion, and thereby fun. Beyond that, we're not trying to do historical reenactments, so fake armor that looks real enough is fine by my standards. After all, we're using fake weapons, too.
That being said, I'm happy to defer to the wisdom of crowds and the final authority of our prop marshals on this one. This is just my opinion.
After hearing the debate and weighing all of the opinions heavily I have decided that fake armor that can pass for real will be given the full armor value of the represented armor tier. If the armor would not pass for the real stuff it will be counted as a tier down. We will also disqualify any armor that doesn?t look real.
Ex: A stamped Tin breastplate looks real, a plastic He-man costume breastplate does not. Bad armor is still bad armor.
I don?t want to argue over weight, if it would pass for the real thing that?s all that matters to the other players and to the cameras.
i agree that someone coming in with clay poker chips should not get full points, but I have a hard time believing that if someone coming in with a piece of armor from nortonarmouries should not get full points! I may be a little biased as I am thinking of getting some pieces from them, but I think that it is too ornate, realistic looking, and expensive to not get full points. I could go out and get a piece of metal sheeting that didnt look nearly as good for less; but I think that to do so would hinder my character concept. It may be a bit selfish, but I think it makes a good point, from the immersion standpoint. The only case I think that could be made to the contrary would be that the real metal is heavier and more cumbersome. I can concede that point and will eventually lose the debate because of this, but if someone were to walk into a game with "real" armor that looked like some of the norton stuff would they get extra points for it? Another point would be that you would be less exhausted and have more energy to play, hence more time playing and less time getting rehydrated and resting. It seems to come down to the investment for most of the arguments, but some of the "fake" stuff is more expensive than "real" armor. For example I can get a full cuirass that is very plain online for 80-100 dollars or I could buy a more ornate piece of "fake" armor for more of an "investment", all the while creating better immersion and having a safer armor. I know im ranting on a personal issue with this discussion, but i just dont want to be penalized for wanting a better looking product. ok I will quit whining for a few days now lol.