I've received some complaints about flagged players being excessively out of play as a means of avoiding PvP. While the rules allow this so long as nobody is actively pursuing that person when they leave play, the intent of a flag is that a player is opting in to the exact thing they're then using the rules to avoid. It's been suggested that I institute some sort of rule that would require flagged players to be in play more often.
Seeing as owners cannot flag (and I personally wouldn't even if that were an option for me), I'd like to gauge flagged players' opinions. Should such a rule exist? If so, how should it be worded? Do we simply limit the reasons a flagged player can go out of play to bodily needs (e.g., eating, sleeping, showering, using the bathroom, sick)? Share your thoughts.
I would suggest making a 2 hour block of the Open Play period mandatory. This solves a couple of issues. It wouldn't require anyone to stay up later on Friday and Saturday night, and they would still have 2 hours to leave site and tend to any off site needs. If you make the second half of the shift 4 to 6 a mandatory pvp attendance, they still have the extra lunch hour as well. I think doing it after mods at night is going to cause problems like we had back with plot. Someone had to stay available for rules clarifications. If something happens that Jenn, Thad, or Nick isn't up for and it needs adressed, you guys would essentially have to call an overnight hold if you can't settle it yourselves.
I vote nay for forced play, but encourage participation / discourage "monster evasion" of flagged players, although my perspective is that of a lower level.
Personally I've flagged for RP reasons (the angori G word) as well as for mechanics (attacking fellow players for 1sharp when they're CC'd, aka "bein' lazy an' sleeping during da fighting")
I've had costuming issues as well as character-development-conflictions a couple times where I thought I may have had to FTM (thanks to quick field repairs by Dan, this was averted). A requirement for Pvp players to actively participate would have put me in a tight spot during my personal scenario, and then "the only winning move is not to play". Plus many flagged players are active narrarators, writers, auxillary-responsibility-players: mandatory play requirement could add another hurdle to scheduling.
Edit: +1 to Heather's idea of half an open play (2 hour block)
I think that maybe something like if you have a PvP battle with someone flagged, that is not equivalent to an honor battle like Drengskapr, that the time before you are allowed to go out of play or to an area that you are immune to being attacked such as the smoking area and have those rules apply to you is like the same 10 minutes time frame it takes for us to be able to prepare actions.
Good feedback. Just to play devil's advocate, though, there would still be ways around the two-hour idea. As Bill said, what if there's a wardrobe malfunction? Or a scheduling conflict? What if the player develops a (possibly convenient) headache? Or worked all night the night before and needs a nap? What if they spend the entirety of that time technically in play but physically hiding elsewhere on site?
Don't get me wrong: The idea of a sort of showdown at high noon 4pm has entertainment appeal for the non-flagged masses. I just see folks who want to avoid PvP poking holes in it.
FOr medical reasons, you'd be able to avoid any pvp for any time anyway. Put on a white headband because helath comes before play. And shit hppens for costumes all the time, and it's obvious when it's an actual costume malfunction. That's gonna happen for whatever rule we put up so trying to build around it is pointless. If somebody gets caught dodging for a false reason, then maybe forced unflag due to not wanting to participate or a plot curse or something. Or, better yet, the pvpers jut police each other.
As a non-pvp player, I'll still throw my thoughts in:
1) Medical Leave: Requires notifying ownership/medic and completely removes you from play for a set period of time.
2) Voluntary Leave: Requires notifying ownership, time of out of play period will be noted, player may not reenter play until that time.
Just two thoughts.
EDIT: Not to make more work for ownership/dragons den, but essentially require pvp players to sign out if they're leaving play for prolonged periods and they cannot reenter until the designated reentry time; actual medical emergencies, meals, bathhouse, and sleep would be the only time I'd allow a pvp player to use a white band.
What about maybe a few time a season someone holding a PvP show down and all flagged players are required to participate. And to prevent people avoiding it no one can (if they have already been flagged for so long) they can't unflag until a later time. This will allow other players to get to that person they've been trying to get. The year before last at the end of the season everyone who was flagged had to go in play so players could resolve their grudges. Even if it means they hide in an open play area.
EDIT: I'd actually be willing to write/run the activity if no one else can/wanted to.
This idea came up during a conversation with Nick: Allow flagged players to force other flagged players into play unless they're out of play for an aforementioned bodily need. Just hanging out out of play? Not eating or using the restroom? If you were sick or sleeping, you'd be laying down in your cabin. Take that headband off.
Personally I would unflag if I was forced into a showdown with other flagged characters. The reason I flagged is because Falkrunn is an ass and absolutely hates certain other races. That way should could fight and kill them if she wanted to, not because she has to.
Maybe if you made a PVP marshal. That person would resolve all problems, keep record of flagged players in play and those who are not and for what reason. Flagged players report to this person at game on, or whenever their character is scheduled to come into play, and if they have issues, health or otherwise which require them to put on white headband or whatever. This could also be the person that flagged players come to when they have been killed by another player, or when they want to stage a scene between one another.
-voided-
I am in more for of hey you signed up in this slot to be in play, so stay in play for most of this slot. Unless of course you need to eat, for a medical reason, bathhouse et .So I am more for limiting the reasons a player can be out of play.
Since also Thad pointed out people will dodge it if they really want to maybe instead of making tighter knitted rules maybe it is something that need to be look at a player by player biases. Maybe there should be a consequence for avoiding pvp.. Or maybe you go get an owner to tell them to be in play, if they currently are out of play. Just a side thought
There is my two cents.
Bill and Liz have both mentioned it, so I wanted to address a difference I've noticed. Some folks are flagged for "roleplaying reasons," which I read as "just in case." I assume this is meant as distinct from other motivations, like flagging to steal treasure, exert dominance, or be perceived as "hardcore."
In terms of game design, it's not possible to cater to both. Flagging has always been an all or nothing prospect. If you flag, you do so in the knowledge that Bad Things can happen to you. Your reasons are your own, but there's really no middle ground for what you might call casual flagging. If you're not all in, flagging isn't intended for you.
That being said, if rules are changed in a significant way, I'll most likely wait until the off season and do a flag reset, much like I did when we instituted the new death system. This is all speculative for now.
One other note: A few folks have suggested heavier oversight from staff. I'm probably stating the obvious, but we've got enough to do as it is. The goal is to make the system work better for you, not to make more work for us. I favor the sort of self-policing system Billy suggested for that reason. Hence my idea to let PvPers force other PvPers into play when they're not out of play for a good reason.
And Amy, you're not "force flagged." You could have chosen not to be a vampire. ;)
As one who has not yet flagged but is planning on flagging soon, I'll throw in my thoughts. Personally, I think the whole problem of people just hanging around out of play all the time is an issue that isn't exclusive to PvPers. It's a problem that effects the PvP system most severely because of reasons others have pointed out; but additionally, the immersion of the game suffers when half of the players are supposed to be RP'ing are kicking back with headbands on in the tavern.
My point in all that rambling was that maybe if we address that issue as whole, we can mitigate some of the problems with PvP-dodging. Perhaps add an announcement to the opening ceremony encouraging players to remain in play when they're supposed to, and discourage them from leaving play except for health or other important reasons. If that doesn't help, that would be the time to impose a rule.
You've got a point, Johnstone. Orn has a laid-back atmosphere where folks don't have to maintain immersion. That is almost certainly a contributing factor to, shall we say, PvP absenteeism.
Others have called for greater immersion in the past and I've told them all the same thing: It's an intentional design decision. Nick, Jennifer, and I prefer the more casual "sitting around the D&D table cracking jokes" atmosphere. You're welcome to encourage others to be in play more, but we won't be mandating it any time soon, and changing the culture at this point would be difficult even if we were willing to.
Is this at odds with the PvP discussion? Certainly. The flagging system has always been an add-on that resembles other, more immersive LARPs. It's there as an option for those who want it. I don't mind changing the in-play/out-of-play rules for those who do, but such decisions won't extend to the rest of the game.
I agree with johnstone in some respects. A huge detriment to pvp action is being out of play due to people not staying in character. I mainly want to address the smokers den. I being a participant at it, the only reason we stay there is we like to talk mainly from boredom. There have also been many occasions where we have put our cigerettes out to come into play because we have seen activity. Perhaps its a self fullfilling prophecy of sorts but we dont stay in play because there isnt anything to do.
Half of the palyers are sleeping or playing games. This is fine if you want to do those thing certainly do just provide some reason for player to be in play other than to be in play. I was thinking if someone is in character attire and is just in a out of play activity we as players should have a way of alerting that player to come back into play as soon as possible. Like going up to a player and saying "immerse yourself at your earliest convenience." Prehaps you could get a moderator to ask someone to come into play to avoid suspicion of a "murder".
If i have the option of sitting around making jokes out of play or sitting in the tavern twiddling my thumbs im going ot choose the former. Thought?
I almost brought up PvE in my earlier comment but did not; since it has been brought up now however :P I think PvE OOP was a larger issue before the grotto idea (which I like, and yes PvE OOP is still an issue); before the grotto, if people wanted to RP, the tavern was a good location- but you might be interrupted by werewolves wandering in midafternoon, or swarms of super posses off hornets, or any number of other things that would simply walk in the door. So, since the grotto moved the wandering monsters away from the "civilized" area of Jastrey, I think it has encouraged PvE players to RP in the tavern more. I know I haven't played Esgir for some time, and he's going in a new direction, and I have to come up with where he's been now since my plan of "studying to be a Runesmith back at Forgehome" doesn't really work with recent events (:P), but I plan on being in play pretty much anytime I'm not performing other duties for Orn (monstering, narrating, etc, etc)- still no PvP for me though. :P
I'm not certain I completely understand the idea that hanging in the tavern, playing games, or hanging outside with friends need necessarily be 'out of play' or 'non-immersive'. Marloff, for instance, is a mage who thrives on games of chance. Hence, it makes sense - in an RPG way - that he tends to hang out where such games have a better opportunity of forming. And, well, Althena is a healer, pure and simple. And shy despite her mother henly ways. She's going to stay where she feels safe BUT will rush outside if anyone is in need of healing (she's done it before; will do so again). Maybe my brain just isn't up to working speed yet, because I really don't see why that equates to 'out of play'.
I can say that Dana and I try very hard to remain in character throughout the duration of the events we attend. Except, of course, while tending to den duty or other personal issues (or if Little Dan needs us for whatever reason). Heck, even when eating we still try and maintain some RPGing to this admittedly boring yet necessary pasttime.
RPG does not necessarily mean that you have to be in battle at all times. After all, Gandalph and Bilbo enjoyed smoking by a quiet fire.
As a non-PvPer (and you will never see me do so...ever), I have to wonder (as has been wondered above): if you make the decision to flag, why aren't you staying with that decision? I saw Bill and Liz's posts above, and I can kinda get behind those reasons, but just barely, still, flagged is flagged. If you only do so for roleplaying components, maybe then a new idea has to be formed (and no, I'm not going to brainstorm that. As said, I will never PvP).
I do agree with Thad - owners already have way too much to do already. And, Orn seems to be set upon an honor system, which, I have to say, is a wonderful structure. It may simply be a matter of adding to the announcements during opening ceremonies; strike a cord with everyone's sense of honor and fair play. If it continues to be an issue, then maybe a brainstorming session is needed and a revamp to the rules. But, I don't think adding more on everyone's plates is the answer. And more rules, at this time, aren't the answer either.
Of course, I may be being unrealistically optimistic.
I mean just throwing this out there but wouldn't be possible to just stalk the player if they are just hang out in out of play and wait for them to come back in? This will result in consiquence in its self for example if a player is hanging out in out of play wait for their mod wait and the minute they go into play for the mod drop them most mods have a 1 scene follow up to the hook as it seems anyways would it not be possible to drop them on there way to the mod? This would also increase the consequence for waiting out of play if you get dropped right before a mod then you have no fear sucks but it's your own fault. As for preventing external pvp while on mods simple have narrators state the mod has started external pvp must stop.
i know I'm not flagged but from a watchers perspective if you really want to drop someone nothing is going to stop you you'll find a way
Not all of us are in the loop of these concerns, I'm afraid (read Goose Igaly isn't sure who all is being eluded toward). that said, I am aware of a fewinstances when a situation arises and the PVPers seem to suddenly vanish. That is not to say that those of us not PVP don't exist in some hybrid state of in-play and out-of-play on a regular basis.
Given the only few instances of which I am aware, which I'm am sure others are aware, I will agree with Althena. You said during the last opening ceromies that using the catch-phrase "Don't be that guy" seemed to work very well (it was my first event when you said it, so I take your word that it worked well). Simply making an announcement about it may be enough to prevent "that PVPer" syndrome.
I do agree with jimmy. Most of us smokers sit in the smoking area during open play to smoke and crack jokes because we really can't find anything better to do. There are a few wave of monsters that come through, and we try to participate in those as often as we can, and even the games can be fun (when you aren't losing all your gold). But I do see we get a little bored of just killing things in sight and losing all our gold to a strange man in a fedora. I for one know, I get wore out and the day drags by slow (especially when its hot) so id rather sit and relax for a few hours than be in play. I'm certainly not opposed to someone saying "Hey, you need to get into play for certain reasons" there are always ways to hide from someone trying to kill you other than metagaming or avoiding it out of play. :)
I will pipe in on the Tavern/Real life games issue. Stay in play and play the games. If I can pretend that Liz is a Giant, I can pretend that you game of Cards Against Humanity is a setting appropriate past time. It causes no further stretch of the imagination to me. With the Grotto being a thing, there is no reason why you couldnt do these things in the tavern with fear of monsters interrupting your game. This takes no moderation, and is a simple change of thought that everyone can get behind.
On the other hand, if you have just murdered me in play and then I see you sitting in the tavern with a headband, for 3 hours it is much harder to wrap my head around. I know that you are out of play, but it looks like you are avoiding PvP or reprisals. Criminals dont hang around the scene of the crime, and while the headband signifies that you arent there, it can be a tough pill to swallow that you decided to come into play for 3 minutes and now are gonna use a loophole to avoid me in play. Just my two cents there.
I honestly can't think of a structured way to make it work, but I'll go ahead and say I wish this wasn't necessary in the first place...ahem.
Anywho, my best idea would be this: You chose to flag? Cool. Your white headband means nothing to PVPers unless you're on monster duty or orange head banded. They can pop you into play anytime by hitting you. Doesn't matter what you're doing, short of being in a restroom, inside a cabin, or in the kitchen. As far as the smokers corner, the idea is to put the cigarette out and deal with in-play things, so anyone can walk by and smack you. The target could call a hold long enough to put out their cigarette for safety reasons, both parties move away from the other smokers, and lay on.
This has been a meta gaming issue, so I feel like having to ask someone to come into play gives away that it's about to go down and takes away the element of surprise. This would bring back the risk that the PVP people crave- the feeling of always having to look over your shoulder. It would also encourage never letting your character sheet or weapon out of sight.
If you want to fight me in play and I'm playing x wings in the tavern or out of play for whatever reason, ask me to come back into play. I'll gladly beat you into the dust or get my as kicked in return. Afterall its just a game.
It's a player participation issue, not a "cry to staff because so and so doesn't want to play" issue. Be an adult and take up the responsibility of what you've opted into.
Also, no offense intended. I didn't read half of the comments before I thought of something I wanted to say.
Hmm, A lot of good discussion happening.
I was flagged before the big reset and I can understand the frustration that Mr. Shell has felt. Honestly I have a few ideas as to perhaps help with the PvP issue.
- Why not make a new Merit like deathspeaker. We make it so a player can have the ability to coaxed someone into play. Rp reason something like they pay spys or something to give them the location or something. (just spitballing)
- As for the owners, They have soo much on their plate as is. Possible solution do something like the narrator thing and make "Refs" you find a Ref they agree to spectate and maybe could tie this into skill mentioned in the previous point. The Ref would act as rule clarification of course they need a bit of training so they know their rules but could be something no?
- The pvp time during open play is intresting nice one Mrs. Heather!
- Once upon a time people flagged and feared not the reprucussions of getting wreckt. You die? its cool you signed up for this go get stronger and kick their butt. Be brave. You even get a fashionable red band to prove how intent you are. May it give you courage.
Flagged players should be able to go out of play for foods and what nots, sure. I think pvpers should be allowed to go out of play every now and then, to relax. But it shouldn't be for more than a quarter of the block (Saturday afternoon, Friday night). And while there is no real way to tell people to not go to sleep after the Friday mods or the Saturday night finale, it should be encouraged to stay in for atleast an hour or so.