Alright. Cabin raiding went down like a sack of bricks. Let's see how you guys feel about this one, then.
Something that seems to be missing from the current PvP system is a way to kill off your adversaries. Sure, you can gank them, take their stuff, and drag their name through the mud, but short of griefing them until they quit (which I'd rather avoid), you can't permanently get rid of them.
In addition to that, there is a conspicuous overabundance of flagged characters. With the loss of cabin raiding, I suspect there will be even more. And while the voluntary aspect of it lessens this somewhat, player discontent and out-of-play bickering tends to increase with the PvP population. For that reason, it is a design goal to make PvP less appealing so fewer people will choose it. Also, <insert joke about running out of red flags every game>
For these reasons, I'd like to make the death card mean permanent character death when drawn by a flagged character killed from PvP. This will make PvP the scary, realistic prospect it should be, give PvPers that taste of danger they're looking for (and so rightfully deserve), and cut down on the overall PvP population.
What do you guys think? Are you as gung-ho about this as you were about axing cabin raids, or is this one harder to stomach?
There's merit to your stance, Tom, and I agreed with it for years. We want death to be scary. We want PCs to flee in terror when they think they might die. It adds realism and immersion.
That being said, I have noticed a steady trend in game design toward being more forgiving of death. Take EverQuest versus WoW, for example. The more successful games are those where death is less punishing.
This is beside the point, since death is a topic slated for the Story group, but I thought I'd frame my feeling about it. Permanent death is old school and hardcore, much like PvP, whereas forgiving death is more casual. You'll notice how these two forms of gameplay (hardcore versus casual) mimic our alignment system.
So I say we let the PvPers have their permanent death, tread in fear of their fellow PCs, and pat themselves on the back for being hardcore and such. It's what they want, after all. Meanwhile, us goodie-two-shoes can go about our business, dying casually and cursing the death card without suffering the same sting.
I with Tom on the fact taht death needs to give people nightmares but since this is the pvp forum Death of a character choosing to be pvp(hardcore) needs to be a real aspect of the game. I feel anybody flagged that draws the death card needs to perm not just from a pvp move.
take for example im dropped by a monster but tom comes and takes all my stuff and leaves me there to die I draw the death card is this a pvp death or a monster death?
You do make a valid point, Josh. Where does normal combat stop and PvP begin? If you're dropped by a monster and killing blowed by a PC, does that count? There would be plenty of ambiguity.
My problem with perming from monsters and plot lines is that plot is, shall we say, fond of senseless killing from time to time. October was a perfect example of this. If this sort of thing resulted in a perm, there wouldn't be much sympathy for our hardworking yet often overzealous plot crew. They might even become gun shy and make content too easy for fear of killing and perming a PC, flagged or not.
I'm definitely fine with letting flagged folks perm each other; it only adds to the desired feel of PvP. Since monsters don't care if you're flagged, however, I see no reason to make that sort of (all too frequent) death harsher. I'd rather deal with the ambiguity.
My opinion is that you're selling something the ability to flag pvp at too high a price than it's actually worth.
Yes, it adds realism and it will no doubt drive off players but that is only a result of setting such a very serious possible consequence.That will probably also drive off players that legitimately enjoy being pvp and would like to continue being pvp flagged to the point where they would undoubtedly feel shoehorned into being unflagged unless they wanted to risk losing the character they spent so much time building and developing behind.
This is especially true of story events that require flagging or people who just find that one race particularly appeals to them and that they couldn't play anything else.
The general atmosphere of what would be left would probably turn much more sour and cold as any single rogue with death gas and a good throwing arm could potentially make a character that someone put an ungodly ammount of effort into a history in a single minute.
It's a heavy weight to hang on players heads,are you opposed to my shady attempts at a compromise at all? What about automatically forcing someone to draw twice for any pvp related death? Or requiring pvp related deaths to come with a mandatory loss of skill points? Perhaps even on a scale similar to the price it costs to purchase a skill point with boon per level.
I thought that scaring people away from pvp was the point. PvP wasn't even added until this past season and that was because of the actions stiers took to make town want to kill him. This game isn't a PvP game I will be more than happy to play one if that is what we want but I thought pvp was added for roleplaying purposes not I just want to kill somethink let me go kill a player. I know this sounds wrong coming from my actions on Saturday night.
I there isn't a fear of pvp than almost everyone will be flagged and you'll have higher lvls just come in a lay waist to the low level characters, this I don't like. DEATH is a most for those that choose to be hard core.
After speaking with Ashley he agrees with me on the fact that not just pvp death be death but all death cards drawn by a flagged player is death. This will make it so that say Tom our highest lvl fighter in game doesnt come in a lay waist to all the towns pvp population without fear of his own death there will always be a bigger monster.
Yes but look at it from a purely out of context perspective. Clearly pvp has been a hit, a LOT of people are flagged and a good quarter of the races require you starting out as PvP flagged.
In addition, a lot of people enjoy the extra drama and content that the purely player driven pvp section of orn provides them. Now whenever you drop the hammer and say that they upon death they have a 1/22 chance of losing everything they worked for and spent hours everyday roleplaying out on the forums what does that give you instead? just less players funneled back into being unflagged only because the price is unreasonably high.
Theres already bad feelings enough when someone winds up drawing in the pvp community, especially if the situation was in the least bit questionable or bullshitty. Then if they draw the perm card? That is going to be a really bitter night in the tavern for everyone involved.
Keep in mind of how strange the overall seriousness of the game would differ. In one corner of the tavern some guys are getting high off fairy poo and dancing around, and in another corner someone is drawing a card that will permanently kill them. Something feels inherently wrong in how the game would be spinning off into two wildly different directions.
adding more pain and risk to flagging pvp is a good idea, I tried proposing some possible alternatives, but to hanging an actual death over peoples heads can only cause more harm than the good that any concept of realism can supposedly provide.
Ok so no perma kill for pvp. What about a far worse set of cards for pvp characters. A death deck 2.0
Non-flagged players have stuff like loose a magic item. And flagged players have, give your most valuable magic item to the first flagged player you see after you rez.
To put it simple, I think the death card should be perm period. Whether its drawn by PvP or not. There is a fear of death, but I feel that dying should cause nightmares. After all everyone dies, and so should every character at some point. Having a perm card should be standard.