If you've been in chat over the past few weeks, you've probably heard me talking about certain sweeping game revisions that are planned for the off season. Without going into too much detail, the goal is to rebuild the entire game system from the ground up. Things that are underused, unbalanced, confusing, or clumsy will be revised or dropped, things that are simple, balanced, usable, and well-loved will be retained, and brand new rules and mechanics will be introduced to improve and evolve the existing system.
Make no mistake, it's going to be big.
The process for this will go in three stages. The first stage will begin after the final event of the season. I'll be compiling a list of mechanics and rules in need of revision, organizing these into categories, and creating focused discussion groups for each category. For example, we might have one discussion group for character creation and advancement, one for treasure, one for PvP, and so forth. I'll be hand-picking the individuals for each category, and the discussions will be held in private, restricted forums.
Briefly, the reason I've decided to do it this way is because I'd like to bring in many minds without letting the discussions get off topic or overly complicated by too many people talking at once. We tried strictly open and democratic rules discussions in the past with poor results. This will be my attempt to add some of that back in while keeping it under control.
Drawing board discussion groups will be held during November and into December. Once we have a draft system in place, we'll move into rough playtesting during December and January. Individual aspects of the game will then be returned to their discussion groups as needed. Finally, I'll be reprogramming the website and porting the content during February and March so we can have everything finished and in place for season four.
That's the tentative plan. What I need from everyone right now are two things: Problems with the current system and volunteers for discussion groups. Mind you, I don't want to debate problems at this point, only compile them into a list for later. Also, this is just an expression of interest for the discussion groups; I'll be selecting the participants personally once I've identified the groups and who's interested.
Well, here's my list of things that I think we need to work on, in brief.
PvP overhaul - In general, PvP works well, but it neither fill the niche for "game" nor "realism". Cabin Defenses are a big thing on this list, and I'd like to make the argument for removing it all together. Its too complicated and convoluted - and there's no fear in being raided in your cabin if you wait to go to bed until plot says that they're going to bed for the night and cabin raids are over. You can't be killed in your cabin if you're not in your cabin.
Class restructuring - what makes rogues different from warriors, and disciples different from druids? I'd like to look at reducing the overall number of classes, but give them each their own unique feel and offer more flexibliity in character customization and make multi classing worthwhile.
Treasure/Armor system - these have been two seperate systems in the past, I think we need to take some time to actually bridge the gaps between the two systems and create tags for "basic" armor for people who bring it into the game. This will help armor marshaling significantly and will reduce the questions on how much armor something grants when it comes to things like summer armor rules and how much armor do I get per piece as I take things off or give them to my buddy as I'm going off for monster duty.
Crating/Tradeskill system - I'd like to take item creation away from individual classes and make it into its own system. Enchants are something entirely different and you should have to be able to cast a spell to enchant it, but anyone can look at a book and figure out how to make a bomb, a poison, or a healing draught. This grants more versatility and RP opportunities without having someone have to be a super high level of the appropriate classes before town is able to make their own revive and rejuvination potions.
Things to nix -
named effects are clunky and cludgy, I think they're an ineffective means of attack, or conversely can be entirely too powerful due ot the fact that you're completely unable to avoid them unless you're able to counter said ability.
"level limited" - totally unnecessary if you already have a limited number of build points and highly limits character customization. Looking back on some characters, everyone is identical, playing the exact same skill paths with minor exceptions in who took what specialty action, which leads me to my next point
Specialty action is entirely broken and needs to be fixed or removed. Its great for healers in their current set of needs, either nobody else needs it, or its highly broken in the favor of casters. The higher affinity for casters allows a greater range of versatility and number of actions, and the fact that they're not reliant on martial combat means they don't have to use spec actions to be able to continue to call base damage if they've sepcced into spell blast. If a melee figher loses his weapon, he's useless until he gets it back, a spell caster still can do packet damage with abiltiies, and most often uses spec action to keep current on their highest level abilites allowing them to more effectively do a greater amount of damage consistently throughout the day.
"Evil" bent character descriptions for playable PC classes. Warlock lore needs some tuning up, but thats plot/lore and less game mechanics. (I'd swear I made these same argument last year. xD )
rogues and sorcerers need more damage....
We need to find a way to make dwarves better....
Elves can rot in the pit...
Uordeq are the master race and will soon enslave you all...
I'm happy to be involved in any game discussion, although as I abstain from PvP I doubt I'd have any valuable contribution to make there (short of pleading to PLEASE keep it optional going forward). Scott makes some good points and I'd love to hear from others as well.
Nice list, Scott, nice list. *cracks knuckles* Here's mine, in no particular order. ;)
- Character sheets are cluttered. Many actions become irrelevant as characters gain levels, and many other actions are never very useful to begin with (e.g., most Guard and Hone actions, Resist, etc.).
- Skills are unclear to newbies. They should more clearly spell out what a character is capable of.
- High damage numbers are hard to keep track of. All damage, armor, and health should be divided by 5.
- Refresh is confusing. Many people mistake the number following the Refresh for the number of actions regained.
- Soothe and Charm are basically the same and should be combined.
- Named effects... what Scott said.
- Specialty Action... what Scott said.
- Cabin defenses... what Scott said.
- An action for each enchantment creates a lot of clutter. Characters should qualify to use item creation and enchantment based on their skills and actions, but should spend downtime to use them.
- Cure lacks parity with other status ailment removing abilities, and doesn't fix anything particularly useful.
- Revert is worthless. Critter Form is silly. Both should be dropped entirely.
- Reveal is worthless unless used as a vicinity. It should be dropped and Perceive should be revamped.
- Mute is good but underused. We should introduce other effects that make action delivery methods impossible (e.g., fairy fire-type effect that makes it impossible for rogues to deliver sneak attacks).
- Empower is good but probably too high rating.
- One Encounter should be the assumed duration of most effects.
- I'm probably alone in this, but I hate the term "disciple." I'm still shopping around for a new name that says "holy healer" without the religious overtones.
- On that note, espers should be renamed seers.
- Evade is overpowered.
- Monster type-specific effects (i.e., Foe Specialization, Bane enchantments, druid/ranger natural compulsions) are worthless. Monster types should either become clear and relevant or be dropped as a game mechanic.
- Multi-packet and multi-swing actions should be dropped for simplicity.
- Retort and Riposte are basically the same and should be combined.
- Spray and Burst are solid. Vicinity needs some work.
- Action methods of delivery should spell out exactly what needs to be done. Rogue attacks, for example, should use "Sneak Attack" instead of "One Swing."
- Lore skills need to be revised. The current plan is to do away with Monster Lore and World Lore in favor of thematic lores like Nature Lore, Magic Lore, and Shadow Lore, each of which grants access to a mix of articles and monster licenses. Class Secrets may be rolled into these as well.
- If item creation and enchantment become skills, engineer and ranger should be rolled together into a single class focused on ranged attacks. Marksman or sniper, maybe.
- Transmute is cludgey and needs to go. Permanent transmutes can stay as part of downtime. Sorry, Bub.
- Vampire and werebeast should be scrapped and reborn as wifty conditions.
- Consumables make treasure check-in a nightmare. They should be combined or reduced in number.
- Many consumables are worthless and could stand to be simplified. For example, there should only be four kinds of healing potions, one with a Heal 1 to pick someone up, one to recover their health after rest, one to heal them to full immediately, and one to revive the dead.
- Random monster loot needs to be improved.
- Silver nuggets, bars, and bricks are nice but boring.
- Armor is way too complicated. It needs to be much simpler, and designed in such a way that it meshes more cleanly with the treasure system.
- Rumors are entirely the purview of plot right now. Players need a way to suggest them.
- Characters need avatars just like players. Players and plot members should be able to post as their characters in the in-play forums.
- Players should be able to submit photos of events. Administrators should have the ability to moderate these before they are published.
- Active versus inactive characters need to be more clear. PCs should become inactive after a period of time without being played (e.g., six months).
- Plot members need administrator help to create complicated conditions.
- Plot members need more control over what goes into the bazaar.
- Characters need the ability to trade with one another.
- High-level characters have too many actions, most of which they have to keep for defense. For simplicity, high level characters should have the ability to become immune to lower-level effects.
- Plot members need the ability to create arbitrary pieces of treasure and to put arbitrary properties on existing treasure.
- Administrators need more control over how treasure can be used (i.e., items of this type must be stashed, items of this type cannot be stashed, etc.).
- Players would like the ability to combine treasure into a collective "guild" stash.
- Neutral characters are too common. Drawing Death from a PvP death should mean perming.
- There's no reason to stay in a class past level 10. New actions should be created to fill out the remaining levels.
I agree with the vast majority of what you guys are saying. I am very excited to see the game evolve. You have done an outstanding job so far and I believe it will only get better. I am certainly glad I don't have to do all that work. I want to take this opportunity to thank the members of plot and administration for their hard work and dedication to the game and the enjoyment of all of the players.
I APPROVE THIS SUGGESTION:
- If item creation and enchantment become skills, engineer and ranger should be rolled together into a single class focused on ranged attacks. Marksman or sniper, maybe.
a few of my suggestions for pretty much the ONLY Class i know lol
- Like Explosive shot
- something to replace the muti's we have as rangers have..
- Weapons should be "swing".. arrows should be "shot" since ya can't really swing an arrow lol
- if ya getting rid of cabin defences and combining eng/ran we should be able to use the traps for in-game use besides just "cabin defense"
- and if there is no monsters that are effected by posion REMOVE the "tox" tagline since it's pretty useless and resist posion action...
- oh and nuggets, bars, bricks are so over used!!
So most of what I have thought has been said. My order would be
1. Making classes more distinctive and/or customizable. The classes currently lack individual flavor. The Shaman and Esper classes are a good example of distinctive classes that can be readily identified and offer options none of the other classes have. Lumping the archetypes allows players to make a character that uses the actions they will use, though it does require a good deal of planning and/or playing experience. I believe that you will see a lot more of "Can I change this?" emails than you currently are now.
2. Treasure system, with level limiting being nixed. If someone wants to be a crappy fighter and a good crafter, why stifle their character concept, of course that will be moot if the whole system gets a revamp like you guys say. Adding the enchant system to this category as well.
3. Named effects. what Scott said.
4. Action rating revamp. Some action ratings are way too high while others are not high enough.
5. PvP system updates, a la what both Thad and Scott said.
That is my top five. Honorable mention because I have had issues with it from the get go is the armor/summer armor issue. I will wait to blast my opinions on this again lol, but know that I def will volunteer to discuss this if it is to be discussed.
I'd be happy to join in on any discussions.
Scott and Thad have both said pretty much what I've been thinking, plus what I've discussed with one or both of you before. In no particular order, my thoughts:
1. Ditto on the named effects.
2. Character customization would go a long way, but from what I've heard we're headed that way now. It's not really exciting for everyone of the same class to use the exact same actions and have the exact same skills purchased.
3. There should be a better explanation of "How to Play" for the newbies instead of all of us having to tell everyone every single time about the library and guess at which books to learn skills from. This isn't really a mechanics issue though, just something to keep in minds while you revamp the site.
4. Gold - What do we spend it on? Most of the materials really needed to craft with never show up in the bazaar and the equipment that shows up tends to be very weak.
5. Action ratings. These need to be looked at and rebalanced if the system is still following this concept.
6. PVP is generally just a mess. There's a lot more fights about PVP then there is in PVP itself.
7. Armor tags. I have to agree with this, especially for PVP. Not much point in PVP if you lose your armor, but can magically replace it with one of the infinite sets of basic armor you happened to bring with you. It also adds a tad bit of risk in letting someone borrow your armor.
8. I like the old idea of associating monster types with a color of tabbard if you want to keep the monster type idea in play. This would also help greatly in knowing which damage type to throw. (I.E. If Gaius has learned that plants are scared of Fire damage, I'd could use my empower fire to a beneficial effect and know that I'm seeing a plant because it is wearing a green tabbard).
9. Races need looking at too. It's fairly obvious that dwarf is the best race or close to it. Humans need something else besides the weak affinity since all the skills they take right now are associated with their class. All the races that match that class have those affinities anyway. This may change depending on the revamp though.
10. Random monsters... need something. This has been discussed often though.
11. Perceive as an action does absolutely nothing unless you are really, really good at and dedicated to roleplaying.
Well, those were my thoughts for now.
As Gaius said --Character customization would go a long way, but from what I've heard we're headed that way now. It's not really exciting for everyone of the same class to use the exact same actions and have the exact same skills purchased.--
that's the very reason i picked up CS: Eng. just to be different and not like the "normal ranger"
i have tons of fun ideas for how i wanna run with my character too.. dual class is my ulitimate goal but like ppl have stated b4 it's pretty pointless and worthless.... and yes i agree us "humans" need something besides just a "weak affininty" for all skills and yes PLEASE keep PVP OPTIONAL
This might or might not matter, but I'm gonna give it a shot. I think there should be a way for newbies to know the difference between First Aid (Medicine Rank 1) and Healing spells (Such as "Heal 10"). I've seen it happen before (And I'm sure many others have seen it too), where they'd use it without the count.
It'd be: Person 1 touches Person 2, says "First Aid", then Person 2 stands up, now healed. Last I knew, there's supposed to be a minute count before the person regains health points. I know it's a newbie mistake, and people can learn from their mistakes, but I don't know if it's recognized enough and they'd get away with it.
Well.... that's my opinion...
AI'll keep my list short and my text as wall-less as possible convenience, plus most of what has been said has already been talked about by someone else.
1) PvP is a big one and it's kind of a powder keg and wholly volatile and a great deal of the system now is reliant a lot of marshalling to keep everything regulated and running smoothly. I could see a lot of worst case scenarios happening overnight that could really make sunday or saturday morning a hairy mess to deal with (say, plot has gone to bed for the night and someone winds up getting into pvp combat in the middle of the night, or a gank occurs and the aggressors retreat back into their cabin with the loot and the victim is effectively dead until they draw from the deck in the morning.)
2) Something that makes it encouragingto play a human. The argument is strong for encouraging players to be a fantasy race and taking the effort to costume themselves but it almost feels like it gimps humans too as a result unless they had planned a really bizarre dual-class scenario where they wanted to have affinities in things that don't overlap at all. At low levels the extra prepared action that you get with your class is VITAL to where it really makes you ask yourself if it's better to play a class/race you don't fully synergize with over playing class/race combo that is naturally gimped right out of the starting gate (and thus, blisdon the dwarf was born!)
maybe racial/tribal backgrounds for humans with their own sets of specializations and affinities with little or no special abilities to take advantage of? (Just brainstorming really, I Can feel the cruise missle loaded with a thad computing it's trajectory best suited for my house already.)
3) This one I wouldn't consider vital to the ongoing gameplay mechanics but nonetheless incredibly would be an incredible addition to the game is something official that helps people cement their their class with who they roleplay. Because...what really seperates a valiant defender of justice and champion of the people from a bloodthirsty dread knight when they both have virtually the same character sheets?
Or an elven bowmaster from a rugged dwarf game-hunter ?
A devout follower of isthenia and healer of the sick or a devoted cultist of nameless gods long forgotten? One of the most interesting things ive discovered about Orn is the possibility for creative expression and how accomodating that the current class makeups are for any wild hair up your butt you might have for roleplaying (oneday I'll play Menthol of Newport, oneday.)
but that itself begins to fall off after character creation unless you're an especially creative sort who is strong at roleplaying and harnessing your character in a way that makes it distinct when you roleplay. Which is still a daunting task for newbies to approach, even now roleplaying feels strange and alien to me and I kinda wonder if I'm doing it wrong. Exactly like dancing (thank god for irony being in style now, I can churn butter and do the cabbage patch all night long and it takes twice as long as it used to for me to be forcibly ejected from the Dance Club/WalMart/Olive Garden/ Funeral Home!)
I dunno, it's a strange subject to bring up I know and probably nothing to really needs to be done about itbut hey, No ideas are bad ideas during a brainstorm, yeah? (unless of course it ends with you getting slapped with either a hand or handcuffs. Then it was pretty definitively a terrible idea.)
Either way, I'd love to join a discussion group and help throw my 2 cents into the tip jar! Especially if you plan on having any panels on healing/specialty actions, PvP or the lovely instrument that is the vuvuzela.
ALSO, HITPOINTS! how do they work? I was always told that the hitpoints return back to full along with your armor once your refresh/kinda-sorta restores back to full when the combat encounter has ended and things trail back into downtime/puzzle solving. Is that not the case at all?
ALSO ALSO, if you need any raleigh locals to help test out any ingame changes before the next season I definitely know that me and the guys would be happy to oblige.
ALSO ALSO ALSO, do you expect that some of these changes be ready to test out by the march fighter practice? (kinda-sorta like a public test realm on an mmo?)
I would like to start off saying I agree with most all of what most have said. I just have a few more points.
1) Bane heals are about worthless really since its just an exchange of health and in a battle (which almost all the battles we have at higher lvl are frequently fatal) become more of a burden then a help.
2) In reaction to the character customization thing, you will find most characters are optimized for battle simply because the system we play is very combat oriented. It would be nice to have the more customized characters, however, balance on mods should be adjusted to reflect this. It must be remebered in order to get that they are weakening themselves in battle. Perhaps having plot select which parties are going to go on the mods so that they may balance the mod exactly for the group.
3) PvP is a good idea, however cabin raiding is childish IMHO and often fueled more by the player then the character. I am more of a fan of PvP for strickly RP purpose. For instance if a goblin almost kills half the party he is on a mod with, the party should be able to detain said goblin. (Nothin but love Loki, Still was good fun though)
4) Agree with the damage/health/armor points being too high and hard to count at higher lvls. As a side note to that, armor coming back on a 1 minute count is a bit OP (this coming from the man with 124 armor/material points) Now ideally and more realistically it would only come back if you have a blacksmith repair it, but since that mechanic is clunky and wouldn't be able to be used on site perhaps there is another way. How about armor refreash is a 10 minute rest instead, same as a adventure power.
5) Again on armor. I know Thad is obsesed with realism on the armor thing, however I feel if it atleast looks the part it should count for maybe one tier less. For example Scott and Arie first came with plastic armor that looked fantastic and was shaped like platemail. I think it should of counted atleast as chain or hard leather. Plus there are some awesome looking LARP armors out there you can buy that are made from polywhatever.
Well, I am sure I got more, but its a little late. I would love to help out anyway I can.
Alright, I can't sleep, and I have many ideas racing in my head right now. I know we are not at the point of discussing stuff yet, but if I don't put these ideas down they may be lost. So here I go. I have a suggestion on how to minimize complication and maximize character customization. I shall place down my ideas in order here.
1)Group together all actions into four broad archetypes: Arcane actions, Divine actions, Rogue actions, and Warrior actions
2)Turn all downtime and story actions into skills, nix cabin actions alltogether since in a perfect world cabin raiding will be disallowed :-)
3)Slim down the actions and skills keeping only the best of the best and nixing the ones that are clunky or over powered.
4)Now that you have all that stuff done figure out what classes fit under what archetype (IE Sorcerer, Mage, Warlock, Seer are Arcane Archetype. Fighter, Savage, Paladin, are Warrior Archetype. Thief, Ranger, Engineer are Rogue Archetype. Disciple, Shaman, Druid, Bard are Divine Archetype)
Now for making a character
1)Choose an archetype which will determin what classes are available and what combat actions you may choose.
2)Choose the class you want from that achetype which will determin what skills your character has. Some things like downtime enchants and such you will get a choice of which ones you can take, also things like choosing if your a sword and board fighter or a two weapon fighter would be chosen here. As you lvl up more options and skills will become available and go up in ranks along with possible immunities to things like fumble and daze. You will not buy these with points you would get them as you lvl.
3)Buy your combat actions. You will have a set amount of points to spend, and earn more as you go to events. How much Action Points you have will determin your lvl as well. You will start with a bare minimum of points so a 1st lvl character can buy some actions. You can choose to buy any action within your archetype. If you want an action multiple times then you must buy it multiple times. For instance a Fighter wants to be able to use 3 +5 swings and 2 fumbles. He must buy each one of them seperately.
Now I know I didn't cover racial abilities here. They would be skills that allow a combat action 1 time and will open up the higher lvl racials as you lvl up. Also certain races may have choices along the way of skills that may not pop up for other races. Those would be the racial affinity skills.
Well, there is my big idea I had while going through an anxiety attack from quitting smoking. hopfully I will be able to sleep now without these ideas keeping me up.
I read everything that is posted and it's time for me to speak my mind.
Regarding character customization, and racial/class superiority in ORN.
I feel that this is directly related to a paradigm that most people have about games. “Its not a game unless there is a winner”.
Role-playing games have been dealing with as long as I have been playing.
If you come to a role-playing game and try to be the winner, or the best you don’t “GET” of role-playing.
This thought pattern leads to what is termed “MIN MAXING”. (Building the most powerful character). I saw it when I ran Role Master for 13 years, I saw it when I played WOW, and I see it every time a new player is introduced to our tabletop game.
I don’t play an Angori Bard because I think it is the most powerful character in the game.
I play it because it is a fun role-playing experience.
I don’t mean to preach (Faith is My Instrument (inside joke)) I have been guilty of making decisions based on benefit as well.
We have cookie cutter characters not due to a flaw in the system, but due to poor role-playing.
Perfect! Great job guys. See how easy it is to blow holes in the system? No need to be nice; now's the time to voice your complaints, whatever they may be. The next system will be that much better for it.
So far I've identified several discussion groups. I'll probably add to this list as we continue getting feedback.
- Character Design - Classes, races, skills, actions, advancement, and character sheets/licenses. This is a big one, and will likely have to be split off into more focused groups. The primary focus will be to create a system whereby players can choose from many distinctive but equally viable options for their characters.
- Combat - Health, damage, armor, and combat effects. Combat is a central part of the game experience, and deserves its own dedicated minds.
- PvP - Cabin defenses, raiding, and open PvP. Truth be told, this will be the smallest topic at hand, but I feel it's important enough to those who care about it to deserve its own team. Rest assured that PvP will always be optional, but it should still be fun for those who opt into it. Finding ways to enable that fairly without putting a strain on logistics or plot will be a key goal of the discussion.
- Newbie Experience - Starting characters, orientation, mentoring, and newbie mods. Nathan made a good point that this aspect of the game needs work, and little misunderstanding of the sort Katie and Alex described are all too frequent. I'd like to form a group dedicated to hashing out processes and recommendations for welcoming new players and getting them up to speed.
- Story - Roleplaying, immersion, random monsters, rumors, lore, and plot needs. Alex, Ashley, and Tom all brought up roleplaying, and how the system does little to encourage it and, in fact, may hinder it in some cases. I think it's high time we give this underserved aspect of play more attention in the rules. For the record, I have no idea how to do that as of yet, but it definitely bears discussion.
- Treasure - Production, enchantments, consumables, equipment, loot, and check-in/check-out process. Like character design, this may be too big to fit into a single group. Time will tell as I devise a more detailed list.
Unfortunately, everything is so interdependent that it's impossible to avoid certain divisions, such as armor under combat but not treasure. Where needed, I and those who are assigned to multiple discussion groups will provide the needed synergy. I'll add to this list as we continue. Please keep the feedback coming.
@Ashley - LOL man, I totally understand where youre coming from with the Min-Max and not "GET"ing roleplaying. My closing remarks should have been taken as jokes, but in terms of balance I do agree with most people that humans probably need SOMETHING, or at the very least, they need to be a balanced middle ground and for every benefit a race has, it should have some detriment OTHER than costuming. There are plenty of ways to do this, and we have lots of wonderfuly creative people who can put their heads together to make a well balanced system. Humans should be a baseline standard, no benefit, no drawback, everyone else should go from there.
@Thad - As far as story and roleplay from a rules perspective - that's honestly more of a balance between players and plot. We've done better this year at fostering role play and actually having people in character. I said it back in June and I'll say it again, roleplay isn't something that I believe you can make a ruling on. You can't create a law or a rule on roleplay because the very nature of doing so stifles the creativity of players. I've played table top RP games for years with the exact same character build sheet and had no less than 6 different types of rogues with nearly similiar stats and the exact same rules. What makes them different? The attiude that I bring to the table when I want to create a character design. Its the personality, the flaws, the emotion, and the take on the world that makes a character. Right now, Wreynn and Alyial have more or less the exact same stat line, both are rogues, both are beastly, and with both at or above level 10, they're just as effective in combat. What makes them different? The way I portray them in game. One is a touch arrogant and thinks he can get away with everything, the other a sneaky basard who hides in the edges of the woods and does "favors" for town, but never lifts a finger to do anything himself.
Same character card, totally different characters. Wreynn is welcome in town despite the fact that he's overtly done things to townsfolk, Alyial is an outcast, hated and reviled by some people, loved by Glimmer, nothing about the rules changes who these characters are, its just what I as a player have brought to the game. There's no need for written rules to foster RP, RP just has to happen. Its organic, its creative, and its impromptu - the more rules we have trying to "define" RP, the harder it's going to be to foster that sort of environment.
I mostly agree, Scott, and that has been my default answer for some time. However, it bears inspection whether or not certain rules can stifle roleplaying. The alignment system does, but it's a necessary evil. And the current character design methodology discourages the sort of unique combinations of character options that give rise to some of the most interesting characters. Like Ashley points out, he plays an angori bard as a character choice, but it's clear that the system penalizes him for it. From a purely mathematical standpoint, he'd be better off as an elf or a fairy, but Kirell wouldn't be Kirell if he weren't exactly as he is.
This is an example of where a rule could be stifling roleplaying, but there may also be ways to encourage it. Like Alex pointed out, what's the difference between one character and another? I remember integrating codes of conduct in with the old paths idea awhile back. What if we offered a mechanical incentive to adopt things like that, like a reward for making your character more interesting?
I'm not saying I want to change the current methodology. I'm just saying it bears questioning. I'll never force roleplaying down anyone's throat, but encouraging it is definitely a worthy goal.
Well, the most simple and balanced way to do it is to remove the bonus action for race/class affinity. It puts people on an even footing for all races and classes, hell, you could even go so far as to say that certain races may have to pay an additional xp to take certain classes. Its a bigger hit proportinately early on, not so much in the late game progression. How many Angori mages do you figure there are, or empyrean warriors? This goes back to balancing around human. That extra action early on is incredibly useful when the number of your actions is so limited already.
You're right though, Kirell would not be Kirell if he wasn't an angori, and Ripper wouldn't be Ripper if she wans't a fairy savage.
As to the alignment system, its just bad nomeculture. Dreygor is a "good" character - but falls under "neutral" as soon as he flags for PvP. He hasn't done anything wrong or shady, but has opted to be "neutral" in order to defend what he feels is right and just. I feel the same way about Doran. Whereas Keg is "good" despite the fact that he actively riles up the Uordeq population to the point that they want to lynch him but can't do anything to him in play because he wears the banner of "good". The only place alignment calls have any effect in game is in the vicinity mecahnic, and depending on how we work that, it may or may not be an issue.
I dislike codes of conduct for certain benefits, I'm not fully against it as it has merit, but it railroads people into a certain way of playing to get an ability. It feels like more min-maxing to me and while it may be fun for some, I don't feel that a character RP condition should be the basis for an ability or a status effect. This greatly differs from giving rewards and for spectacular RP or things that happen to players in game. The vampire, were-beast, or perhaps paladin conditions for actively role playing and seeking our or being inflicted with a status by character choice and character concept rather than here's a list of wifty abilities that go with these restrictions. It feels more organic to me and players become something more instead of just picking from a list of status effects. We as plot can watch as a character evolves, and if we feel they naturally fulfill certain criteria on their own over the course of time, we can grant them with the benefit. Similar, but different.
Oh wait.. I'm derailing this into a discussion aren't I?
I now return you to your regularly scheduled list of things that people think need to change about the system....
Warlocks should not have to harm little puppies to continue gaining in power. Eating babies should be an appropriate sacrifice
Okay the biggest issue with me right now is the PvP system, or rather how NPCs and PCs are allowed to react differently to players who are flagged pvp. I just feel as though flagging PvP is very different from flagging shady and underhanded. Or maybe that's just me.
My second issue is enchanting, or rather the fact (and yes this was mantioned) that each enchantment is a skill that clutters character sheets.
I had a third one but I- oh right. Dwarves and Humans seem a tad under cooked, lore wise. Again that might just be me.
Named effects are OP, even though I love them.
Spec actions are nice. I don't think they should be done away with, merely revamped
speaking of vamps. Vampires, want to see more of them, but I suppose thats not a mechanic thing...
Im out for now... and I do mean for now
I'll start out first with a disclaimer: I did not read everything you guys wrote. Truly the only thing that caught my eye enough to actually put the effort into writing this was the cluttered character sheets. The following example I will use pretains to Rogues because I feel like they are the class that needs the most work.
Right now rogue gets some new attacks, both psotional and sudden actions, each level which makes the abilities from a previous level useless. Abilities should be scaled, for example Rogues would only get one sudden action but each level afterward the damage would increase to compensate likewise rogues would get a few positional attacks that would scale too each having a different angle of attack/effect.
Also there should be a skill that allows you to have more available actions to give soem classes who don't have much usefulness earlier on a bit of help.
The one thing i will suggest that i really think would get pvp moving would be to change death conditions. Maybe make a story driven ressurection mechanic that erases their characters memory for an in game week prior to their death, so they can keep playing the same character but cant just immediately go kill the group that ganked them. They could also have half health or some other standard status effect for the rest of the event as part of the ressurection process to replace the random and sometimes silly death deck (like how i fell down a bottomless pit and somehow only broke my arm)
I also completely agree with named effects being broken.
Not in an overpowered sense so much as....almost like a bug report. It's really unreasonable to expect a guy on monster duty, keeping track of the damage in his head from four different people swinging at him to also be able to hear the named effect from somebody in the back directed towards him. One on one, small group tactics and in pvp the mechanic functions fairly well (when you aren't struggling ot be heard)but its just when you get those mods when it's 20+ people swarming around like angry hornets that things get dicey. I've seen it happen once or twice so far, at least.
which sucks, because named effects are awesome.
Another big issue ive seen occur has been the lore restrictions, ingame knowledge has proven to be a pretty powerful commodity and I can understand the power behind making things to where not just anybody could read and study the articles- but I have also seen newbies asking about the race packets and stuff for their own races that they are about to attend a game and roleplay as which just seems like a burden to new players.
In a similar vein to that, I'd like to suggest something... like...dossiers I guess? On certain ingame npcs. kind of like a world lore skill/section of the site but for both the active and shelved NPCs that the town has met before. Especially recurring npcs where general information about them that would be relatively common knowledge from asking around town.
My logic behind this is because behaviorally, a unique npc, or a villain, or a cheeky resident in jastrey is as much a part of the world of orn as any article about locations or classes.
It would be especially useful for new players fresh to jastrey to learn a bit about the Jastreys past and gather a bit of ingame knowledge about what one person might be able to see in the future.I think that would be a great first step towards helping put people on the same page so that when an npc suddenly makes themselves known, the dramatic "oh shit" effect is known to even more people. and that the player themselves have a slightly better idea just of what they just encountered and a better feeling of why they should care.
Oh well, It's just an idea I had playing around in my head when I was at the barbers today. But if any players are interested in making it more into a player-driven RP initiative then I'm sure we could find someplace around town to tack up notices about some of the dangerous and mysterious faces around jastrey for people to read up on. :D
I agree with Sebastian, to a degree. Lore is a problem. I have 47 years worth is shit in my head and I haven’t the memory space or time to memorize the extensive and well-developed lore of ORN. If I spend the points on lore my character should know it.
I would also like to see something done about machine gunning. When it is done to me I don’t take the damage but the offender is not reprimanded in any way. It has been brought up at every game I have attended. I don’t know if the answer is longer tag lines, or simply stopping action and telling the offender to swing their weapon as though it has some weight. I believe after being reprimanded 2-3 times they will get the message. If they don’t do as instructed, pull them from the fight. Changing undesirable behaviors is not impossible.
So far, these are the things that I feel need some revamping and the ideas that I have for them.
Races: Every person in every race is exactly the same. I have read up on a few of the race packets and there is a lot of potential for racial, or sub-racial, abilities in there. My Ixifar has red and purple feathers. This should give me different racial bonuses. Though my feathers are from two different sub-races so I think the racial abilities should go as follows.
- You pick your race, and then up to two sub-races within that race. Suppose you are a mixed child. I know of a few characters like that. Now each person would get a set amount of racial skills at each level. Maybe one, maybe more. At each level, you would get the option to buy a racial ability from either your race or from your sub-race(s). On top of that, I think that there should be some racial abilities that everyone of a particular race gets the benefit of without purchasing them.
This aspect would go really well with the class customization that people are asking for, which is my next topic.
Classes: I completely agree that people should have the option to make their class different from others. There are two options, or you could possibly combine the two in some way shape or fashion.
- Skill Tree: I know that this is very WoW-like, but its a great way to make it so each character is different. Have three main trees for each class and within each main tree have a few more branch offs. Again, WoW-like, but very effective.
- Ability Buy: Now this method would require a slight to major rework of skills but it would make classes more customizable. You would have three things that are set for each ability or skill: duration, damage and effect. You would get X points to spend for skills. With these points, you would buy each of those things. The more of one you buy, damage for instance, you more it cost to make it. The system would need a lot of work to determine how many points you get to spend each level and what the base cost for each effect is, but I think it has a lot of potential.
Character Advancement: Ok, I'm not really sure on how to help this system out but I really think it needs some work. I did all of the math and if you go to every session in a season with the same character, without using boon and assuming you didnt pay for your first event or use boon, it would take you 21 sessions to be level ten. If you spend boon for every session, except the first, but didn't pay for your first event, it would instead take you 14 sessions. http://www.mediafire.com/?lpeaja6h5zp4z6v There is a link to the character advancement table I did. Please correct me if I made any mistakes on it.
Ok, I guess I got one other suggestion to put on the plate. I know everybody here loves variety and the ability to do a bunch of wifty things, however, the more wifty things you put into a system the more complex and confusing it becomes. Right now we have a whole lot of different actions that cause alot of differing effects. There are also the other actions used to fix said actions. Right now if a newbie comes on wanting to play, there is a whole lot they need to learn and remember. Its even hard for us that have been playing it for 3 years or so to remember what effects are what and what counters or fixes what. Add in the confusion of actual battle into it and the game turns into a very chaotic and confusing place. I know this may make me differ from many perspectives, but I think that there may be too many actions you can do. Its like watching Bub play PnP, when its his turn with his mage it takes him 20 minutes to rifle through all the things he can do. Too much stuff makes the game confusing and somewhat dunting to try and play fairly without forgetting what an effect does in the middle of combat. I think a simplified game with maybe less effects but more fluid and easier to play is best for a LARP. Mainly because of the realtime pace of the game and the fact there are so many people playing.
I agree with what the people are saying about the lore and game world information feeding more into our characters. I think we could avoid a lot of "misplaced" archetypes by providing world lore related abilities on the character sheets. I love the idea of an Angori bard, and it would be great for him to have access to a uniquely tagged skill as a result of making that PC choice. For example: perhaps an Angori bard gets the ability to provoke or cause fear instead of charming with his performance. The basic tags and game effects are the same, but we're using what we are developing about the classes and races to lead into customization.
I also believe that we definitely need a "newbie walk-through" and volunteer to be on that committee.
It occurs to me that we have two mutually exclusive viewpoints being expressed. On the one hand, we want greater ability to customize characters, with more options and more novel configurations so that characters can be distinctive rather than cookie-cutter. On the other hand, we have a desire for greater simplicity, for fewer mechanics, fewer taglines, and less complexity.
I don't care to delve into it too much right off the bat, but this should make for a stirring debate. To be honest, I agree with both sides. Insomuch as we are able to accomplish both (perhaps by allowing complexity where it doesn't cause headaches and forcing simplicity where it is needed most), I think the system will come out much friendlier for the thought exercise.
As the thread seems to be dying down, I just wanted to say that I think we've laid some good groundwork for next month. Thanks to everyone for providing their feedback. Whether or not your suggestions make the final cut, I promise you that they will each be given full consideration.
Not including myself, I count eight volunteers for the discussion groups:
- Alex
- Ashley
- Bub
- Chris
- Heather
- Jennifer Kuntz
- Josh Roark
- Marcel
- Mark Shell
- Nathan
- Scott
- Tom Betts
- Tom Kuntz
Others have participated in this thread (Heather, Josh, Tim, etc.), but have not stated whether or not they want to participate in the larger discussions, so I'll assume not unless told otherwise.
I'll be compiling all of the suggestions and ironing out the topical areas over the next few weeks. If anyone else would like to be a part of them, speak now or forever hold your peace.
I don't know if people have mentioned some of this but this is what I feel need to change.
- Enchantments – I feel these are too expensive in the cost of creating them and not worth the added benafit. They need to be scaled down so that by third to forth level you have at least one magic item and so on from there we have 10 levels in the game with no add damage to there weapon.
- Armor/Damage – I agree with what has been said
I agree with most everything else I’d love to be on the class discussion and or the treasure discussion groups
I'll be glad to take part and help out any way I can. Just let me know what you need me to do.